You make a very good point Balto, and I would agree with you on many levels. However since my D6 arrived in the world I see a wonderfully intelligent creative little girl who CANNOT concentrate for more than 20 seconds at a stretch, who constantly bumps and knocks herself because she isn't paying proper attention to her surroundings, who butts in on conversations far more than a child her age should be doing. Her inability to stay on task means we have stress every single morning just to get her dressed and ready for school. And I have even dealt with this problem by not making it an argument anymore - she knows when the clock says 8.30 we get in car dressed or not. At her age she has no homework, thank god, and she's super bright so hopefully that might not be a major problem. She already sometimes hates herself and says things like "I don't know why I'm crazy" - she's referring to her wild impulsiveness which gets her hurt or in trouble.
She reminds me of me, she reminds me of my mum. I know that my mum suffered horribly with feeling like she was a failure for most of her adult life, and yet she had a very high IQ - in her day only 1% of females in the UK attended tertiary education and she was of that 1%. The house was in chaos, we children mostly went to school with barely brushed hair and completely random items in our lunch bags and even managing that much caused her a HUGE amount of stress.
So far my daughters ADD symptoms are not causing anyone too much stress and I wouldn't want to put her on meds unnecessarily, but I am glad people know about this nowadays and there is help availble should she need it (or should I need it).
Someone with severe attention problems might average up to 3 hours a day. On a good week. Get him running on all cylinders for 6 or 7 hours a day, and his whole life changes. Absolutely!
The hyperfocus helps me enormously when I am on a task I feel really motivated by. Stimulation in the form of a buzzy environment, or days when I am delivering training courses, or chairing conferences are fine and I usually get a lot of positive feedback. Mundane just chug along through several small not wildly urgent projects and I'm just a fifth wheel.
The menopause effect definitely made my mum's life more difficult and if it starts to mean I stop being productive then I'll go on meds. There's no reason I should subject my H and my children to a life of domestic chaos, and put too much of the burden of earning a decent living onto my H if there's something that can be done to help matters.
BTW crazy Eddie, I don't think you would have died in the hunter gatherer days. Typically primitive people spend about 2 or 3 hours a day "working", the rest of the time they're just hanging out. Occasional bursts of hyperfocus when stalking a wild animal would also be necessary. I think we would have fit in just perfectly. It's these non-ADDers that have ruined it all for us by inventing clocks and mortgages and school and sh!t
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
BTW crazy Eddie, I don't think you would have died in the hunter gatherer days. Typically primitive people spend about 2 or 3 hours a day "working", the rest of the time they're just hanging out. Occasional bursts of hyperfocus when stalking a wild animal would also be necessary. I think we would have fit in just perfectly. It's these non-ADDers that have ruined it all for us by inventing clocks and mortgages and school and sh!t
Probably so, but we'd have had serious problems in many civilized eras, which is when most of our records and impressions come from. Between the invention of the printing press and the welfare state, I daresay our mortality rate was significantly higher than it is now.
One thing I know I've mentioned before, but that 3 hours a day includes all waking hours, which leads to a situation where you might be able to (barely) hold down a job or be present for your family, but not both. (How's Mr. hap's schedule these days?)
Anyway, Balto is not saying anything that I haven't heard before, and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but in the end, if there's an unfair advantage available that lets me live a happy and productive life, I'm going to take it. This isn't a game... as long as I'm not stealing it from anyone else, I should be able to take any advantage that comes my way, because the disadvantages certainly get distributed at random.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Anyway, Balto is not saying anything that I haven't heard before, and it sounds perfectly reasonable, but in the end, if there's an unfair advantage available that lets me live a happy and productive life, I'm going to take it. This isn't a game... as long as I'm not stealing it from anyone else, I should be able to take any advantage that comes my way, because the disadvantages certainly get distributed at random.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't. Hell, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking anything that improves your quality of life even if you have no definable medical condition. I believe in the near future it will be commonplace to tweak the brain software for improved memory, improved concentration, etc. Mental steroids, if you will. The only aspersions I'm casting are on the ADD "industry".
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Balto, I don't think I'm completely following you. If you don't think there's anything wrong with taking something that improves quality of life even without a diagnosis of a medical condition, then what is your issue with the "ADD industry?" Do you think they are preying on people, or getting rich on others' misfortunes, or expanding the power of the pharmaceuticals? Just trying to understand your point.
Other thoughts....
It was the GMAT that I took for business school. Just popped into my head this morning.
It occurred to me that each of the tests the other day was fairly short and there was a lot of variety. I found myself getting impatient and feeling ready to move on right about at the time that I finished some of the tests. If they had dragged on for longer time periods my focus and attention would have dropped off.
I remember the SAT being grueling. It was LONG and I had a hard time staying focused. I remember getting to the point where I was practically guessing on some questions because I just couldn't maintain focus and had a feeling that I just couldn't do it anymore and knew that I was running out of time. I wanted desperately to get into college, so I took it quite seriously, but it was like my brain just reached its limit.
I also can hyperfocus for long periods of time on topics that interest me. I love genealogy and can spend hours poring over old vital statistics records at a town hall or compiling and inputting collected data into my database. I never feel bored, and LOTS of things bore me. Usually I stop because my other life as SAHM intervenes, and it really feels like an unwelcome interruption.
Fran,
My son shares has some ADD symptoms too, so I'm going to keep a close eye on it. He is highly distractible and it is a challenge getting him out the door in the morning. I have to break everything down to the nth detail and help him stay on task. He also can hyperfocus on topics of interest. He thrives on structure and routine, doesn't handle change well and has trouble with transitions. He also has social issues. These symptoms may be caused by sensory processing disorder, for which he is being evaluated by the school district.
The only aspersions I'm casting are on the ADD "industry".
[ETA - The issue on which I agree with Balto is that it does seem like ADD/ADHD diagnoses automatically lead to pharmaceutical solutions.]
Really interesting topic Mrs CAC4.
Two years ago I sat on a plane next to a gentleman who had just delivered a lecture on the diagnosing the differences between ADHD and Bi-polar in Kids. We had a great conversation on the topic of ADD and ADHD. He says there are techniques that can be tried before the last resort of medication. He felt that medication is used too quickly because it is easier than trying the other routes. His adult son also had ADHD and he was using bio-feedback techniques to great success.
In my opinion, I think ADD and ADHD are real issues however I don't think that changes the fact that they are probably over-diagnosed and over-medicated too.
I think there are probably a great deal of borderline ADD and ADHD cases in children that are considered problems more because the adults have trouble dealing with them. Also kids in general are not getting as much sleep, exercise and good nutrition which could also translate into behavior problems which end up being diagnosed as ADD or ADHD.
One case I read about was a 6 year old girl who was very fidgety and they thought for sure she had ADHD until they figured out she had sleep apnea, wasn't getting enough sleep, and fidgeted in class to stay awake. Once she was getting enough sleep her ADHD "symptoms" disappeared.
Anyway...
Mrs. CAC4, I think it's great that you have the ADD diagnosis. My only thought would be looking into other techniques to handle it FIRST before going to the medication.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I do plan to investigate non-medication methods to cope with my attention issues. I'm going to discuss with my C to find out about options. It is nice to know that meds exist that also might help if need be. But because of my personal medical history and the number of meds I already take, I would use ADD meds as a last resort.
I think there are probably a great deal of borderline ADD and ADHD cases in children that are considered problems more because the adults have trouble dealing with them. Also kids in general are not getting as much sleep, exercise and good nutrition which could also translate into behavior problems which end up being diagnosed as ADD or ADHD.
Absolutely! It's a particular issue with boys because they are much more likely to exhibit hyperactivity symptoms, even if they don't have ADHD at all. One problem is the current trend of educators to view girls' behavior and learning styles as the classroom "norm" and boys essentially as defective girls. Boys are prescribed ADD meds far more often than girls and often it is not because the boy has ADD, but because he is expected to behave like the "typical" girl who sits quietly and listens for long periods of time.
As the mom of a boy I found the book Raising Cain , which was referenced in the article, very interesting. I need to read that again.
Nutrition is definitely an issue. On a parenting board I've read posts from parents about how the proper balance of protein and carbs in the morning, for example, can make a HUGE difference in how their child functions in school.
Exercise is a big problem too, with more kids being bused to school now than ever, sedentary activities, little to no recess, etc.
The unfortunate fact is that parents are extremely busy and stretched thin, and school classrooms are large and often combine children of various levels of ability, which I think makes the teacher's job very difficult, so kids get put on drugs because it's a quick fix. Here in MA, children in the public schools must pass the Mass. Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test in grades 4, 8, and 10, so schools and parents will do whatever it takes to make sure the kids pass.
cac's cousin, J, teaches 7th grade math and has kids from three academic levels in his classes. The lower level kids are stuggling to keep up and the upper level kids are bored to death, and both of those groups contain kids with so-called "behavioral" problems because of the classroom situation. And it's J's responsibility to make sure that all those kids learn what they are supposed to learn. Crazy!
My friend has twin boys, age 9, who were diagnosed with ADHD. They were diagnosed through full neuropsych testing but their father was reluctant to medicate them. The boys received IEPs and both attended school initially without meds, but even with the IEP accomodations, they could not manage, so now they are medicated, but only for school. At first the boys took the med only before school and the parents hoped that would be sufficient, but now they need to take a second dose in the afternoon so they can get their homework done after school.
There are more learning styles than ADD and not-ADD. For example, some people learn better when in motion, so their ideal learning climate might be for a teacher to walk beside them and talk to them. Some don't retain things they HEAR (mrs. cac) but do retain what they SEE. And vice versa. My late H didn't hear people well when he looked at their faces while they talked, so he generally looked away, and it made you think he wasn't listening. But looking at their faces distracted him.
I think she does make the point that learners who don't learn in the standard "sit quietly and listen" mode TEND to be diagnosed with ADD.
There's no pathology in any of this, just differences. I think y'all will find it illuminating.
{BTW, I agree that the drug industry is WAY too pushy. Some things need medication, some things could do without it but do better WITH it, and some don't need it.)
About the book:
Quote:
Exploring the psychology of human learning, Markova (senior affiliate, the Organizational Learning Ctr., MIT) theorizes that all people distill auditory, visual, and kinesthetic stimuli into one of six basic patterns of learning. She came to this conclusion through her broad-based, firsthand experience as a teacher, being especially observant of the habits exhibited by children who would not fit into the standard norms. This book is far more than a narrative of her work and research, however; it is also a self-help work that "teaches you to use the instrument of your mind to learn more easily and communicate more effectively." Each proposed learning pattern is examined in detail, with readers being instructed on how to recognize their pattern and to integrate this recognition into daily living and learning.
Quote:
Based on her work as a hypnotherapist, Markova has extended the idea of three channels of communication -- auditory, visual, and kinesthetic -- by matching them to the conscious, subconscious, and unconscious mind, producing six personality types: A in the conscious, V in the sub, and K in the un, with permutations of those. Well-written, with many examples and anecdotes. Stimulating theory. This book is a rewrite of "The Art of the Possible."
Boys are the target of the Redlin brigade. The real problem is a combination of things like:
1) about 95% of their teachers are women, boys need more MALE influence in school. 2) not enough physical activity in the boys. 3) Boys and girls learn differently (society needs to recognize that men and women are truly different). 4) Boys learn best while STANDING not sitting. 5) Boys are naturally loud and aggressive.
I saw a doctor on TV that said you can achieve Redlin is a STIMULANT (similar to Cocaine). He said that the SAME effects could be achived the way they do it in 3rd world countries, by giving the boy a coffee bean to suck on.
Thanks for the link and info, Lil. You raise a great point about learning styles that I'm sure isn't even on the radar for a lot of people, teachers and school administrators included. I know from my own experience that I learned much better in an interactive setting than with a straight lecture format.
One of my favorite teachers was my sophomore English teacher who was interesting, dynamic and extremely motivating. I love to read, but found many of the required English classics completely unappealing. I frequently resorted to Cliff's notes because for me reading those books was akin to watching water boil. I just could not get through them.
I must have told her that I had a hard time with them because she suggested several that I might enjoy, one of which was Jane Eyre. I LOVED that book. (But don't ask me about the plot because I can't remember. LOL ) I was so motivated by her classes that that year I actually read every assigned book and got something out of each one. As I recall we spent a lot of time dicussing topics in class and she stimulated us to THINK rather than just forcing us to LISTEN.
Also, Lil, I've read about some overlap between women with ADD symptoms and HSP characteristics. As you know, sensory information can be very distracting to an HSP, so sometimes what seem like ADD symptoms are really a reaction to intense stimuli. Bottom line is that I don't believe that "ADD" is the whole story for me. I see it as one part of the story.
