Priorities and tests of strength

[fearless]

I'm sure I said something like, "No, of course you don't need to stick around." She may have even pushed, saying, "I know you don't need me to stick around. Do you want me to stick around?" Back then, when I felt it was SO important to not be a burden, I might have even said, "no...please don't stick around."
...
Hairdog, who left out the part about how he can't believe he married someone so thoughtless (or clueless) that they'd bother to ask such a question.

I know it's hard to believe but some people actually prefer to be left alone. IF your wife is one of these people or grew up with people like that, she might have actually believed she was being considerate to ask if you WANTED her there. Or maybe she wanted to hear that you WANTED her. Whatever the reason might be it's not up to you to guess any more than it was up to her to guess what you really wanted.

I have to say that when people tell me that "I shouldn't have to tell my spouse what I want", I hear that as code words for "I'm uncomfortable with my wants and needs", "I'm not sure what I really want or need so this way I'm guaranteed that my spouse can't meet my needs unless I feel total happiness", "I'm afraid of expressing my wants or needs because I wonder how they will judge me", etc. So in general it seems to me that fear drives a lot of this behavior. Perfectly understandable and I sympathize. However it still can make it difficult for a loving partner to meet your needs if they don't understand them.

I happen to hate to shop. If someone doesn't know me, they may assume that giving me an afternoon at a mall would be a real treat. For many women it would be. But for me it would be a stressing, unpleasant afternoon. Is something "wrong" with me? Is something "wrong" with the person that didn't somehow "know" that I hate shopping? If I had never told them I hate shopping, how would they know? Maybe they were just trying to "guess" what I want.

Another true story (yawn) a good friend of mine had a serious surgery scheduled at the Mayo clinic 2 years ago. Her Long term boyfriend wanted to come out and be with her and she explicitly told him not to and she meant it. her mom was there with her and that's all she wanted. She was glad that he listened to her and took her wishes seriously. She told me she was really concerned he would end up out there and in no way would that have been a good thing. ETA[I think he was a classic Nice Guy with some covert contracts. He would do things and seem to expect her to react in a particular way]

We all have different ways of expressing out love and appreciation for others. Trying to judge whose way is "best" or "right" or determining that someone else should appreciate the same things we do seems like a recipe for disaster.

[sat567]

Point taken, fearless.

Hairdog

[Lillieperl]

Back then, when I felt it was SO important to not be a burden, I might have even said, "no...please don't stick around."

Yeah, that "being a burden" seems to be the greatest sin.



This business of being alone in hospital, etc., is interesting. My late H spent a LOT of time in the hospital. I was with him most of the time, just to keep him company. I think that was appropriate. Often people came by to see him/us, and THAT could be very tiring. I felt like a hostess. And if he was going through some truly life-threatening surgery, there were only a couple of people I wanted with me, and these were people who would not require anything of me. Who could sit and read a magazine or go get a cup of coffee without bothering me or expecting me to do anything except pace, worry, cry, or all three. My late H's cousin, for instance, was an alcoholic. She has been known to show up in the surgery waiting room drunk, feeling sorry for herself because her cousin is in surgery, and needing lots of maintenance herself! Yuck. One time she and her then-husband showed up on a Sunday afternoon when my H and I were just sitting in the room and watching tv, and I was looking forward to getting my dinner from the cafeteria and bringing it back to the room, and they insisted on taking me out to dinner. I didn't have the stamina to argue with them. Anyway, after all my experience with hospital, now I phone the patient and chat and only visit when I'm sure it's welcome. If I phone and they get tired, they can always say, "the doctor just came in" and get off the phone. When you're there, they may feel obligated to entertain you because you went through all that trouble. This of course does not apply to next of kin (unless they're drunk).

I've mentioned that my good friend's partner is quite ill with cancer, in and out of hospital. I've offered to come and visit (out of town) but my friend said, "Right now I want to be able to give all my attention to {her partner}." Very honest, and I appreciate it. I would be a distraction, at a time when a person doesn't want to be distracted. She said later, probably she will want me to come.

End of mini-rant

[Burgbud]

(Fearless) Burg, There seem to be two different issues you have with those that have ANY compassion for Brian's wife's dilemma.

Not so. I have a great deal of compassion for Brian's W. I have a great deal of compassion for Miss IC. I could go on but hopefully the rest of this post will clarify that more.


First you clearly seem to believe that the women here are either dishonest or ??? when they say that whether Brian was a man or woman they would have the same opinion of how the spouse acted.

Again, hopefully this will be touched upon later. At this point I'll just ask...do you believe women who say they just want to meet a nice guy? If not, are they being dishonest or ???


Second you seem to take issue with the idea that a spouse would not be a 100% priority 100% of the time in 100% of all situations. Is this correct?

No, that is not correct.


Specifically what was it that made it clear to you that the wife should "choose" to be with Brian?

Now we're getting to it. These are the things Brian said that made it clear to me:

To summarize, I fell ill with extreme chest pain and fever right after X-mas.

As if one trial were not enough, my mother-in-law because ill and needed bypass surgery. MIL made it through the surgery fine and was released home on schedule.

I took an unexpected turn for the worse. I will spare the details other than to say that I was in pretty bad shape. Still doped on two drips of a morphine equivalent, I text messaged both my wife and mother, each of them thousands of miles away from me, and let them know what was going on.

So, here is the crux of my dilemma. Yes, my MIL was recovering (emphasis Burgbud's) from a serious procedure. Though, during that time, I was hospitalized twice, underwent surgery, suffered a great deal, and spent many very turbulent touch-and-go evenings with no one but my mother lying on couch next to me.

I find myself very hurt that I could have taken my final breaths without my wife holding my hand.

For me, that spells things out pretty clearly. I'm quite surprised that people read Brian's first post and came out of it thinking this was some type of 50/50 situation. But maybe it's just me.


If her mother was recovering from By-bass surgery and Brian had the flu (after a harrowing previous stay in the hospital), would she still be obligated, in your book, to come home to Brian?

I don't understand why you're constructing this strawman. What did I say that makes you think I would expect her to leave her post-op mother for an H with the flu? Please point out where I said anything that resembles "he is to ALWAYS be her priority".


So you are saying that if Brian had told his wife he was possibly going to die and that he wanted her there, THAT would be showing his puppy to her??

I'd say that fits the definition to a T. I'd say that being hospitalized, undergoing surgery, and having many turbulent, touch-and-go evenings constitutes showing his puppy whether he wants to or not. Sometimes a guy is just vulnerable, period.


And children and women have died in childbirth so I am not sure why you view it as a stretch???

It's a stretch because one case involves several days of a touch-and-go situation and the other involved the *possibility* of complications. (Btw, I take a pretty dim view of the elk hunter's choice.)

So let me ask...if the elk hunter's wife had actually developed serious, life threatening complications and her H hadn't been there because he was off hunting, would that change your opinion of the sitch? Would it change the opinion of any of the other women you've discussed it with who didn't have a problem with it?

[Burgbud]

(Lil) It's sort of an existential resentment, a stance, an orientation, a default condition.

Ah. I thought you were saying it was something specific to this thread.


And blackfoot is most definitely NOT a genius.

You'd be surprised.

[Lillieperl]

I don't think so, honey. (yawn)

[Burgbud]

I don't think so, honey. (yawn)

Hence the surprise.

[MJontheMend]

And blackfoot is most definitely NOT a genius.

You'd be surprised. ;\)

Really he is a stupid blabbermouth who gave away all the secrets of the wolf temple on a public forum frequented by fairly intelligent monkey girls. Probably he would already be dead except for the confusion ensuing from the whole Jack Nicholson giving up throne debacle.

[Burgbud]

Really he is a stupid blabbermouth who gave away all the secrets of the wolf temple on a public forum frequented by fairly intelligent monkey girls. Probably he would already be dead except for the confusion ensuing from the whole Jack Nicholson giving up throne debacle.

He's pretty safe. He's far from giving away all the secrets; he only gives away secrets that he thinks some people might possibly believe. And even that doesn't go particularly well.

He's also proving that fairly intelligent monkey girls may learn the secrets but they still behave pretty much like fairly intelligent monkey girls who don't know the secrets.

[fearless]

At this point I'll just ask...do you believe women who say they just want to meet a nice guy? If not, are they being dishonest or ???

Well most of the women I personally know that want to meet a nice guy really want to meet a nice guy. The problem that many men have is that they are the "Covert contract" nice guys which in reality is NOT a nice guy. I think you can be a nice guy (i.e. honest, polite and caring) and still be a Dieda type man - true to yourself, not needing propping up from a woman, able to do your own thing, having your own sense of self, etc.

So yes I think the women are being truthful. It is just that some men misinterpret the Nice Guy definition. (Of course this is a general statement because yes I understand there are screwed up women that whine about wanting a nice guy and yet date the felon/drug addict/abuser/etc. but that is another issue.)

Now we're getting to it. These are the things Brian said that made it clear to me: (repost of Brian's posts)

Exactly, you keep quoting back to us BRIAN's account of how he felt and what he went through. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing whether Mrs. Brian was aware of this. IF his MIL was recovering at home, she would have been all alone while Brian was back in a hospital setting with what Mrs. Brian MIGHT have assumed was a relapse of the EXACT same issue he had before.

I'm quite surprised that people read Brian's first post and came out of it thinking this was some type of 50/50 situation.

For me,I'm not thinking that his wife saw it as a 50/50 situation. I think there is a distinct possibility that Mrs. Brian MIGHT have believed that her mother was in far worse shape than Brian and needed her more.

What did I say that makes you think I would expect her to leave her post-op mother for an H with the flu? Please point out where I said anything that resembles "he is to ALWAYS be her priority".

You did not say anything specifically. From previous posts I was getting that impression so I asked you those questions to see what your stance was. So then you do not believe that a spouse has an automatic obligation without further questioning to be by their spouse's side in any type of trouble?

So let me ask...if the elk hunter's wife had actually developed serious, life threatening complications and her H hadn't been there because he was off hunting, would that change your opinion of the sitch? Would it change the opinion of any of the other women you've discussed it with who didn't have a problem with it?

My opinion of the situation is that the husband made a stupid choice. It was stupid whether there was a complication or not. The difference is that she asked him directly not to go and he still went. Brian's wife was not given that clear choice.

What is interesting is that the wife in my example was ANGRY at her H for not listening to her and missing the birth of their daughter but she was not viewing this as a make or break issue for their marriage. She clearly felt and expressed her feelings.

My overall point is that many of these "make or break" points only come when the marriage has other serious problems SO to me the issue Brian had was more about the other problems and not really about this specific incident. if Brian did not think of his wife as selfish and self centered and did not feel unloved, I am not sure this specific incident would be an issue. Even if he did feel upset by her choice. IMHO.

My therapist/MC seriously wondered why I did not consider leaving my XH for his behavior with other women AND his disregard of my requests and feelings in those situations. To me that was easy, the rest of our life was pretty darn good and while the behavior was annoying, frustrating, and hurtful, to me it did not represent the rest of our marriage. And I suppose on top of it, I somewhat understood that his behavior was more about his own issues than about me or our marriage. (In other words, he was not flirting with women because I lacked anything but because he lacked something within himself. XH's own diagnosis by the way.)