PF - point noted. I will at least bring it up again, even though today I am tired and not remotely interested. A hj seems more palatable than a bj for some reason, but I probably won't want to be touched. Which he will probably resent and misunderstand.
Some days, I just want to close my eyes and be someone else.
PF - point noted. I will at least bring it up again, even though today I am tired and not remotely interested. A hj seems more palatable than a bj for some reason, but I probably won't want to be touched. Which he will probably resent and misunderstand.
Lightseeker... you say that he would "misunderstand"... but isnt the real problem that he does understand?
the problem, from his perspective, is that you dont want to be touched by him, or touch him intimately.
Sounds like that is perfectly clear to him... and that, all by itself, is enough to kill any kind of will for him to initiate, unless his testosterone level has built up so high that it overrides his compassion for you.
Last edited by Dom R; 01/29/0811:57 PM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
LS, first of all stop judging yourself. You are the way you are and feel the way you feel for good reasons. You aren't some pathologically warped person. You are a normal person having normal reactions to a specific situation. Every time you start to have judgmental thoughts about yourself, just stop. Repeat something over to yourself like "I love myself as I am" or "I am my own best friend" over and over and over again. Block the destructive thoughts-- they do not help you.
Sweetheart, you are beating up on yourself mercilessly. Would you treat a little scared girl the way you are treating yourself?
One of the reasons you allow your H to treat you badly is because somewhere in you you feel you deserve it. Byron Katie (that's her site I referred you to) put it very interestingly to a woman whose husband was physically abusing her: "Why do you beat yourself up using your husband's fists to do it?" This may sound over the top to you or like "blaming the victim," but consider this: "Why do you verbally abuse yourself, using your husband's words?" Honey, YOU are verbally abusing YOURSELF, and the first thing you must do is decide once and for all that you deserve to be treated with infinite love and kindness, from yourself as well as from others.
I got a lot out of a book called "The Verbally Abusive Relationship"-- my bf never called me names, but he can be so rude and abrasive-- tell your H when he gets angry, "I won't be in the same room with you when you talk to me like that" and then you must leave the room. Have standards for how you want to be treated.
Re the sex issue, you asked:
Quote:
I think this is all helping me. I never really voiced why I couldn't do these things before. I wonder if it would help to ask him not to touch me if I want to do something for him? Or would that feel like a rejection or something worse to him?
Ask him. If you're going to get anywhere, you both have to be able to speak up. This may be too big a step right now. But you have a right to be touched or not whenever and however you want or not.
Don't write off counseling after only two! He11, I've been to many (I'm 59 years old)-- and all are not created equal! But a great one can be wonderful. If you don't like the counselor, find someone else. I've NEVER had a counselor insist on talking to my partner. That's fairly unusual in my experience. If you got two bad haircuts, would you stop going to the hairdresser? To me therapy was a sometimes a very private experience, and I did not want to share my therapist with my partner.
Once I remember, my then-bf came to pick me up after my therapy appointment. The bf was hanging around outside because I knew he wanted to meet the therapist. As the therapist and I were walking out the door, I had the thought, "This therapist is MINE. I don't want to share yet." I said as much to the therapist, who promptly stepped back into the house. You'll know when you have the right therapist when you feel that this person is 100% on your side unconditionally and without compromise. I've had a few of those and they were godsends. So, my dear, your experience of therapy is pretty limited at this point, so please don't write it off, okay?
YOU are your own best friend. Whatever happens to any other person in your life, YOU must take care of YOU. As the great Jewish philosopher Hillel said, "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?"
Of course, he said right after that, "If I am ONLY for myself, what am I?"
GREAT post Lil! I had some similar thoughts today but you said it better than I would have.
LS, definitely try to be as honest as possible. I find that is better in the long run than trying to spare my H's feelings. I'm a people pleaser too and I've had to learn that if I'm not honest I'm not being true to myself.
Also, I agree that you should consider trying another therapist. I was very lucky to find one that I REALLY like, on recommendation from a friend. My C has NEVER even talked about meeting my H. In fact, when I told her that cac and I had discussed joint counseling she gave me some names of people we could see together, and said that she'd continue to see me alone if I wanted. That made a lot of sense to me. And I do feel like she is 100% on my side. My friend couldn't say enough good things about her and I too have been very happy seeing her.
btw - I hate the words obligatory sex or pity sex. What is wrong with your W wanting to give you a gift? I know it's better if both are on board, but that just doesn't always happen. I have been struggling with LD for years now, and it is so frustrating to feel like a failure.
There's "I love you and this is my way of taking care of you" sex, and then there's "can we just get this over with so you'll leave me alone for a while?" sex. The former is good - it doesn't stroke the ego, but it takes care of other things that need stroking, and it is a sign of love - but the latter is just insulting.
Fear of failure never leads to success. It can help avoid disaster for a little while, but it'll never motivate you long-term. You'll have to find a way to shift to a mindset where you have sex because you want to enjoy it and you want to share that enjoyment with him, not because you want to keep him from getting upset or keep yourself from failing. Shifting to that better mindset may require counseling and/or medication, so keep looking until you find something that works for you.
Last edited by Crazy Eddie; 01/30/0803:57 AM.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I'm sorry to break into this discussion, never having posted to any of you, but sex has been a huge issue in my M, so I'm finding this topic very interesting.
I'm also pleased to see specifics like hjs and bjs discussed - on other threads, everyone tiptoes around things, which I think is too bad, since we can learn things about how to make sex better in a M from each other as well as all the other stuff we learn here. No need to be ashamed of discussing sex - it's a pretty important part of life.
At this point in my life, I also feel more sexual and sexier than I did in the years when I 'had the goods'. Unfortunately, I'm still dealing with the fallout of all those years when I would rather do anything other than have sex and when I did do it, it was mostly just to avoid the fight that we'd have if I didn't.
There were experiences in my childhood that have stood between me and my sexuality, as there probably are for most people, of varying degrees. We don't exactly bring children up to value and understand their sexuality in most Western countries. It took me years to understand that certain sensations meant that I was turned on, because there were barriers between my body and my mind that I had put there to protect myself. This may be the case for many LD people - we literally may not have a clue about what's going on for us.
Even in those years, though, there was/is a way to get past those defenses I put up. Both my H and I sleep nude - I've done so for my whole adult life, because I find it more comfortable. When he and I started sleeping together (the actual sleeping part), he stopped wearing his pjs. If I get a nice, full-body naked, NON-SEXUAL cuddle and I can just relax into the warmth of his skin, after maybe 10 minutes, there are definite stirrings, which I can now recognize. The catch is that if this doesn't happen, he has to go to sleep without resentment, otherwise the non-pressure aspect is gone.
(I've never actually discussed this with my H, probably because I've never verbalized it for myself this way before. Maybe I'll send him an erotic email later today and explain it.)
There may be a way for people to maximize skin-to-skin contact in their own Ms. Find ways to be naked together, if that's possible in your situation. There can't be any pressure, so if that means taking care of yourself beforehand (no pun intended), that would be a good idea.
As someone else said, counselling or some kind of deep self-reflection is probably needed too, to allow LD people to connect with themselves on a sexual level, something which can take practice.
Thanks for letting me babble on and thanks for the interesting discussion.
(I've never actually discussed this with my H, probably because I've never verbalized it for myself this way before. Maybe I'll send him an erotic email later today and explain it.)
Who is this mythical creature? This "Ingrid"? She seems to be the LD spouse who has decided to explore her own sexuality in the context of her current marriage.
No way. We all know they don't exist...even mrscac4 is just a different username for cac4, posting as the wife he really wants to have.
Hairdog, who's skeptical today of everyone, not just the SSM board.
btw - I hate the words obligatory sex or pity sex.
You may not like those expressions, but they are in fact highly descriptive and accurate ones. If you check out the definitions of "obligatory" and "pity" (I happen to prefer "charity") you'll see that they pretty much fit the scene.
Originally Posted By: Light Seeker
A hj seems more palatable than a bj for some reason, but I probably won't want to be touched.
Let me give you my HD perspective on this one - the only thing I found more insulting than "charity" intercourse was the offer of a "charity" handjob. The message I got was "let me use my hand to get you off so we can get this sex thing off the table. Frankly, it's too much trouble for me to spread my legs".
Earlier in my marriage, I sometimes settled for charity HJ's, but at some point simply refused them. Most men are fully capable of getting that job done on their own. What HD men really want and need is something that they assumed was part of the deal when they got married, swore off other women, and signed over half of their balance sheet - namely, a warm and loving vagina.
Again, don't mean to sound harsh, but, from my perspective, getting the offer of a HJ as a substitute for real sex really pissed me off and drove me further from my spouse. Based on my experience, I'd suggest HD wives to steer clear of what their man may consider to be charity HJ's.
