WAW staying, I'm leaving to give her space..(2)

[COG]

Jab,

Good to hear from you brother!

I haven't drank a drop (over 100 days now)

CONGRATULATIONS! One day at a time.

My philosophy is keep doing what is working and stop doing what doesn't.

Great attitude, that's my philosophy too. It's easier said than done sometimes, but overall it's the winning gameplan.

IMHO, W is still living in the past & in fear of the future.

Don't agree with your view on this Jab. Try seeing it through HER eyes. She's not living in the past, she just has a very vivid memory. Her dream was crushed too, and the pain was very real. She's not going back to that EVER. If she's tentative about the future she's being very wise. Not wanting to fall into the same miserable trap she's finally rid of. Just keep doing what you're doing, moving forward with YOUR life, growing up, doing the right things, the mature things, the secure things. She'll always carry the pain from her past, and always be a little leary, so just know that, acknowledge that, let her be who she wants to be, feel how she wants to feel, and YOU keep on being the rock, her man.

I can honestly say that I don't think I'm physically or mentally capable of doing any more at the moment than I'm currently doing and either it will be enough or it won't. If I feel like there is something more I can do, then I'll do it.

Just be yourself. Fearless, fun, caring, loving, and supportive. That does not mean being a doormat, but being a man. Retrouvaille is a great experience. I much preferred that to C anyday. The problem that I had with C is that they tend to dig up crap that should just not be stirred up, and then just send you out the door with very few tools. Retrouvaille was not focused on digging, but rather on education and communication.

W said the other day she wants to go on a 'family adventure'. I actually said 'I'd love to do that but let's take it one step at a time, ok?

Okay bro, maybe I'm not getting the whole picture here, but when you woman says she wants an adventure, you give her an adventure. If you were dating a new gal that you were really interested in and she said whe wanted an adventure would you put her off? I say, plan a weekend trip to the snow, or the beach, or the mountains. If you can not legally get out of the house, then at least start planning for it. Ask her what her idea of an adventure is. That's a definite green light my friend. She needs to know that you can be adventurous as a family and it's safe. It's part of her learning experiencing about the changes you are making in real world situations, not just home in the apartment.

So, I continue to pray & live on.

Pray on my brother, you still have a long ways to go. One day at a time please.

God Bless You,

COG

[jab]

Yes, I also believe the 'family adventure' is a great idea. I guess some of what isn't so clear is that right now I can not legally do it. It will take some planning & I'm trying to do that. I guess I'm also a little leery doing something very expensive because of our instability at the moment.

I REALLY want to do Retrouvaille with W (wanted to since I discovered it back in Nov). I would book it today if I knew what to do with the kids & how to schedule it in with W's work schedule. If it works out, maybe March.

The weekend (& today) was tough. I've just been really down & anxious to get this whole home detention thing over with. Part of it is that I honestly miss just spending the evenings with the W & kids at home. There have been alot of pressures from many directions lately, so many things I want to do but situation making them tough. Having a hard time dealing with W's emotional withdrawl, too. She still seems like she is seeing things in a negative way, not sure of what she wants or if it will even matter if I do what she wants. Had a not so good conversation on the phone just now with her. We agree on some things but other topics we are the opposite. I really am praying that C helps us move in a forward direction. I feel like I'm running out of time & energy again. W is becoming a little impatient as well. Her feelings are back & forth towards me, she's enjoying her time alone & feeling more awkward around me as of late.

W still has a BIG trust issue, what you are saying, COG, is pretty close to my sitch. I honestly am trying to be the man, be the rock. I do feel like I keep getting stepped on a bit. Nothing big, except I still feel she is taking very little blame for the marital issues (it's all me) & that I never did anything 'right'. That cannot continue if this R is going to work. I can only suck up so much, I feel like a water--logged sponge.

One major hot topic is that I have a very difficult time saying I will never drink again. I tried to explain to W how I look at it, if it means that much to her I am committed to quitting completely. I'm not doing it just for her, I'm doing it for my happiness as well as hers (basically, OUR happiness). I expressed fear that this solution would fix some problems but probably create others. W asked what my plans were if we didn't get back together, I told her I didn't know for sure but I still wasn't going to abuse alcohol like I did over the past few years. She is so persistent that I need to quit completely, forever, regardless if she takes me back or not. I honestly don't feel it's the only alternative & if I was single again I may have an occasional drink. She keeps asking 'what if years from now I wanted to drink...' questions, she doesn't want me to resent her for 'making' me quit. I said I wouldn't resent her, etc. but I can't worry about 'years from now', I care more about OUR happiness and I'm not that 'old me' anymore, alcohol isn't a priority for me. I tried and tried to ease some of her worries but nothing helped. I didn't tell her this but part of my issue is it that everyone I know except for her doesn't think I need to quit for good, yet still I say I'd quit for good if it meant we'd be happy together. I've been doing it for months now without much difficulty... She doesn't get what I'm trying to tell her. She just holds tight to her distrust & fear of the future. I still feel strongly that this wasn't the #1 issue in our M, it's just an easy target...there are other issues that I believe are larger & more difficult to face.

Feeling like I'm in a bit of a rut. I'm not sure how to act around W right now because she contradicts. W wants me to be cheery, happy, affectionate but when I try to give her my affection it's all about me wanting sex. I try to tell her that that is not my intentions but she 'feels' that way & wants me to back off. It's basically like this for alot of things. She says she enjoys spending time with me but then complains how uncomfortable she feels or that she feels ragged trying to come over all the time. I told her I don't want her to just 'accomodate' me & feel resentment toward me. She says she doesn't 'dread' coming to see me but I just don't know what else I can say or do... I don't know how to explain it very well.. but there seems to be alot of her wanting me to do this or that, but then she says something else in a different conversation. There also seem to be alot of me making changes but her not seeing much of them lately.

And, I've been wondering if I should be giving any ILU's at this point. I was a few weeks ago when things seemed like they were going really well but when W had expressed she was so unsure about her feelings again (wanting me to back off the affection a bit), I stopped saying it in fear of making myself look too 'needy & weak'.

[COG]

Jab,

Keep working on YOU! You still have a long ways to go.

I guess I'm also a little leery doing something very expensive because of our instability at the moment.

There are many "adventures" that can be quite affordable. Just get creative. Half the fun is in the planning and it's not illegal to start doing research and talking with your W about the options.

I would book it today if I knew what to do with the kids & how to schedule it in with W's work schedule. If it works out, maybe March.

There will never be a perfect time, and there will always be details to work out.

We agree on some things but other topics we are the opposite.

Just like most M's. We'll never agree on everything, no matter how small or how big the issue. The blessing is when you can allow your partner to have a different opinion or feeling and it doesn't change YOUR attitude.

I do feel like I keep getting stepped on a bit. Nothing big, except I still feel she is taking very little blame for the marital issues (it's all me) & that I never did anything 'right'.

Listen to the woman, she knows you best. Your family loves your from childhood, your W loves you from the truth. Frankly, the mistakes you made were huge, really screwed things up my friend. I definately don't think you need to dwell on them, but you really need to fully accept the consequences of you past actions. You're feeling them now. Be thankful that your W has the courage to be honest with you. It just may save your M.

I didn't tell her this but part of my issue is it that everyone I know except for her doesn't think I need to quit for good,

That's an incorrect statement brother. You know me, and I think your W is completely right. You are an alchoholic. You will not be able to drink socially, or occasionally. You've had your chance and you've proven that you do not have that ability. It doesn't mean you're weak, alchohol is very addictive. Try to see alchoholism as a disease for which there is no cure. This is crucial if you want to save your M. And don't ever say you'll quit if she wants you to. Don't put that responsibility on HER. Grow the balls to stand up for what is right. Let go the childish ways. Make the decision, stand tall, and be a man.

There also seem to be alot of me making changes but her not seeing much of them lately.

You should make changes for your own spiritual and emotional growth and health. That should be enough for you. If not, then you haven't done enough. Don't expect any kudos from your W, your momma, or anyone else. But know in your heart just who you have become.

Hang in there. I'm not sure where you stand spiritually, but just know that the closer to God you get, the more evil will try to distract you. The little demons will be stepping up their game. Those little voices that say, "hey, you don't deserve that", or "hey, you should expect more from her", or "you don't need to give up alchohol completely, you can handle a little drink once in awhile". This struggle you are in has more to do with eternity than it does with your M. It's a spiritual battle my friend and you are in the thick of it.

May the Lord bless you with courage, strength and the kind of faith that moves mountains.

Love,

COG

[COG]

Jab,

PS

I really am praying that C helps us move in a forward direction.

Well try to not have high expectations for C. If it's anything like my eperience, it's very difficult at first. My C's, and there were three of them, all were very good and pinpointing the problems, but none were really able to provide a viable solution. For example, all were very good at picking up on my W's lack of feelings for me. That was pretty easy. But in the end, all three basically told me there was no chance of changing my W's heart. In addition, my W tends to be the type of person who if someone tells her to do something, she'll do the opposite, or she'll do it and make sure it fails so she can say "I told you it wouldn't work". Like most of us, she likes to be right. So be careful about the C, keep your expectations low, and be prepared to hear things you may not expect to hear.

God Bless,

COG

[jab]

Extremely hard day again today. Once again, I thank you COG for putting my head in the right spot. Things pretty much started off by being a continuation of the last week (sucking). Called home to say goodnite to kids, started continuing same old arguments with W. This went on for awhile, it was painful at best for me. I was getting really frustrated. W mentioned she bought some marriage help book (don't know the name of it). First thought was that this was an excellent sign, but then W began pointing out all the bad things in the book that I was doing in the past, etc. W expressed that she felt like there was so much screwed up that she wasn't sure she wanted to attempt to fix things. At first, I started to deny &/or defend some of the issues she was bringing up. More arguments but W had to call me back.

I read your post again, COG during the 'intermission'. It became apparent that I was not listening enough & defending my actions too much. I needed to adjust before it got out of hand. I needed to admit my wrongdoings but not dwell on them any more. I had to stop trying to control how she felt and vice versa.

W called me back. I stopped, apologized about the denial, said some strong statements about where I stand & that I can't make her believe them. I was being truthful. I then listened some more. I validated and agreed with everything W was telling me (she was right, I don't need to defend or deny it). I agreed that what she was telling me was the way it was. I don't want it to be like that anymore, etc. Let's try to do things right for a change & see where that takes us.

Conversation started getting much better. Now we are getting somewhere. W started reading things in the book to me over phone (some quizzes & such). It became really productive. We were on phone 2 hours. I felt much better in the end, she did too. It was good, positive communication for a change. We said goodbyes, I got an ILU (little reluctant but nonetheless). A complete 180 from the backwards direction that the last few conversations were heading. A baby step.

Tomorrow is C day. It was funny to me that W stated that the book & phone conversation tonight was better than any C session we have had to date. Another positive sign. I'll sleep better tonight.

[Atlas]

Jab,

Good to see some great signs. W is really making an effort with the book and the idea of an adventure. That is great.

Now for the loving 2x4:

1. Why are you resisting her way of working on this? She is working on things in her own way. It may not be the best way, or the way you would do it, but it is a way. She needs to go through this review. This is a good time for you to listen intently and see what you have done in the past that has hurt you. She is drawing you a map, write those things down. Her preception is her reality.

2. Dude you need to get to AA. Period. Find a temporary sponsor at the end of your first meeting. Make sure they will be there to get you to the next meeting. Each meeting is diffrent so don't judge by going to just one or two, give it a month and see what happens.

3. Alcohol is the problem in your M. You can keep blaming her for what she did, wait to work that out in C'ing. Don't throw it in her face. Alcohol has made you numb towards her and her feelings, she eventually felt alone enough to look elsewhere. I'm in the same sitch with the booze, and I'll tell you what I had to hear the other night after explaining my sitch to my sponsor. So what I read above is "Your a victim, your a victim, your a victim!" Sorry, but you have been victimizing them while you drank. I know this is tough to swallow and hear. But you can fix it and make it right. It may not be the right you have pictured in your mind now, but it will be making things right.

Your so close man, and that is awesome. I wouldn't direct you to AA if I didn't think it would make a huge change in your life. It's a disease for many, get the "Big Book" and start reading. You haven't lost it all yet, and you don't have to.

[frank_D]

Don't defend yourself

Just agree. "I can see that you are right about xxx"

Then, she will defend YOU.

try it

[GFI]

Hay Jab

I found it pretty difficult to stop defending myself too and was pretty intent on finding faults on W's part to "balance" the scales a bit. I was getting more and more frustrated about all the responsibility falling on me but I found this was more for my satisfaction though than productive.

In fact, it was counter-productive and when I saw it for what it was and stopped things improved.

Above there is talk about accepting her version of reality rather than responsibility. There is a subtle difference here which might help you get your head around it.

Best - GFI

[COG]

Jab,

It became apparent that I was not listening enough & defending my actions too much. I needed to adjust before it got out of hand. I needed to admit my wrongdoings but not dwell on them any more. I had to stop trying to control how she felt and vice versa.

W called me back. I stopped, apologized about the denial, said some strong statements about where I stand & that I can't make her believe them. I was being truthful. I then listened some more. I validated and agreed with everything W was telling me (she was right, I don't need to defend or deny it). I agreed that what she was telling me was the way it was. I don't want it to be like that anymore, etc. Let's try to do things right for a change & see where that takes us.

Conversation started getting much better. Now we are getting somewhere.

Nice work! That's the way to a womans heart. It's about accepting, respecting, and validating the truth, AS HER REALITY DESCRIBES IT.

Our W's memories of specific events are often very different than ours. We remember how fun the weekend at the snow was back in 2004. Our memory centers around the skiing, the food, and the sex. But our W's memories might center around how drunk we got on Friday night and what a stupid thing we said or did, and how crappy it felt to have sex with such a stupid drunk. Their reality is not always OUR reality. Listen, trust, and validate!

You're a quick study my friend. Just keep the focus on YOU. When you're getting frustrated, feeling like there's no progress, then odds are it's YOU who are holding back, not your W. Accept your W for who she is, how she feels, and what she says. Allow her to be and express herself for exactly what she is. Love unconditionally 1C:13.

God Bless,

COG

[jab]

Dude you need to get to AA. Period.

Atlas, I've been going to AA & counseling since OCT. Honestly, it has helped things. I appreciate your feedback but don't 'profile' me. I know drinking was a big problem on many levels. I also know that it wasn't THE problem with M. I'm listening to what W is telling me & she's telling me it was a HUGE part but there were deeper issues that need worked out. Like I said before, the drinking is just an easy target. Easy to identify. I don't want to get into this again with someone. I know where I stand, I'm working on my attitude towards it & I've made HUGE progress. I think a large part of my problem at the moment is W feeling that she somehow needs to control my feelings about drinking & obviously she doesn't want the burden & is in fear of future resentment. It's MY choice, MY happiness, MY life. If I choose not to drink, it's ME that chooses. Nobody is MAKING me do it! I don't know how to express that any other way. Don't profile me, I'm NOT a fuc**** idiot or wimp. I may have been in the past, but that is no longer true. Give me some credit. I see from your sig that you have some experience with this. Nobody can know everything about me and my sitch from reading what I post here.

And for the record, I never resisted the idea of an adventure. I've been saying this to her for months before she finally brought up that she wanted to do something. The only thing I stated was that we needed to take it 1 step at a time. There are logistics involved. I don't want to go on a big $$ trip & that's what I was resisting. The original idea W came up with was a big $$ trip to an exotic location. I'm into that but not ready & I think there are alternatives that would be just as productive within driving distance. I live in Colorado, I'm suggesting to do something Colorado. Plans are already underway. I was very open about the book last night, I was actually excited W thought to get one. I just felt like I was dodging bullets at first. I saw what was happening last night, changed my approach, put my mind in the right spot, & it worked well. I'm not perfect, but I'm learning.