well, all hell broke loose, it is over and done

[appleroad]

Hi Cat. Just a few responses to your last message:

we will talk tomorrow, I will bring up S. I've been thinking of how we'll afford it and been trying to have some sort of plan together, this time around this S will be on my terms too.

-- This is good. It is good for you to be the one to bring up/initiate Sep. It is hard for us to acknowledge that our husbands are going through a period of weakness & disability, where they are unable to lead, that is it us who have to lead and set the pace. I was a little worried about your earlier post where you seemed to be inclined to follow HIS lead related to Sep. Cat, I think it is really important for you to get out in front of him. He is disabled. He is not fully functional. He is unable to lead right now. Also, it looks to me like he will give you whatever you want right now in the legal separation agreement, you won't have to fight him for the material assets of the marriage. I encourage you to go online and download the legal separation forms and set to work on the financial aspects of the separation. This will take quite a bit of time and effort on your part, and is a meditation in itself. You can likely do this without lawyers, and so much the better. It might not be as airtight as a lawyer-mediated separation agreement, but you are not wanting this separation to be permanent anyway. What it really is -- it is moving the battle for the marriage into a new venue.

Galatians 6:9 "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

-- Cat, you are not 'giving up'. Keep this firmly in your mind. The separation is not a giving up of your stand for the marriage. It is only a tactic, it is something that will ultimately preserve the marriage.


... so many faults and weaknesses and pride...

-- yes, Cat. This is what this is all about. It is about the weakness, the disability, the depression and the desperate 'self-medication' for the depression. If you could perceive what is going on with H as an illness, a clinical depression for which he did not seek treatment but attempted to treat himself, and got trapped as a result of that misguided course -- then so much the better. It is very hard for us to perceive these sad attempts on the part of our men as something other than a rejection of ourselves -- and that is OUR part of the spiritual journey.

... I expect things to get rough before they get better,

-- you might be surprised about this. You might find you have already been through the worst of it.

I also know that I will falter and be weak,

-- I think you will be able to handle this. Yes, you will for sure have some failures of confidence in yourself, and some loneliness. A lot of this will come from 'the public perception' of your changed marital status -- if you can get past this you will be OK. This is a separation leading ultimately to a renewal of your marriage, not to divorce. Keep that firmly in mind.

... but I fully understand this S is so necesary.

-- it is, Cat. This is the next step of the journey.


I have some fears, what if he falls in lov w/someone else,

-- a common fear, but when you stop to really think on it, totally unfounded in reality. Cat, he had an EMA/in-love-with affair WHILE HE WAS LIVING WITH YOU!! So obviously, the fact of his living with you in the same house did not prevent your worst fear from happening, right? There is nothing more than the same chance, whether he is living with you or not. This is something I have thought about quite a lot related to my own sitch! And, BTW, my own sitch is going very well, after nearly 10 months of separation.

..things like that. I know they are irrational, I just have to put them out there in the open so they can die and also to be prepared for anything.

-- Yes, Cat. Precisely.

[peaceful_spirit]

Cat,
I know everything you're going through. I can empathize like you wouldn't believe.

This S is necessary. And I'm glad you're come to that realization. And try to see this as a necessary step for YOU... forget about waht it will do for/to him. This will save you. It will allow you to step away from the misery for a while.

Here are some of teh things that helped me, when I would detach from H...

- I did things around the house to make the house my own. For example, I got a desk for my bedroom because i couldn't stand giong down the the basement to do my work. I got a bunch of yummy candles and lit them often (still do)... things like that.

- I created new traditions with my kids. For example, I started Monday picnic night, where the kids and I would to chinese takeout and have a picnic in the TV room on a tablecloth. Then I did Tuesday night story night. YOu get the ides

- I made plans with friends. This was a life saver.

- I tried to find ways to reinvent myself. For example, i was jsut starting to get a consulting business off the ground. So, I researched other areas I could get into.

These are all things that I did for myself when H would move out. They were things that made me feel good... whole...empowered.

You can do the same. LIke you said about having your friends over for dinner. GREAT. And let go of waht your H is doing or thinking. Sure, those thoughts will creep in, but try to detach, mentally.

Will it be easy no. But I think you'll find that it will give you FAR more peace than what you've been going through. At least, that's how it was for me.

I know this is hard. Taking the step of actually having him move out is very hard. But once it's done, you will feel such relief.

And just remember, this is probably only temporary. Think of it as the one last step to saving your M.... and more importantly SAVING YOURSELF!

[LoginName]

Hey Cat, ditto to what all are telling you. And...

what if he falls in lov w/someone else,

What if you fall in love with someone else? He will probably have that fear, or you might have that fear (hope?). It is a possibility. Especially as you are able to relax and enjoy your life again, you'll be even more attractive. Something to think about, and maybe prepare for.

[BeingMe]

Just as Limboland is not a good place to visit, and certainly not live, WhatifLand is the worst place for holidays, and one must definitely not become a citizen there, dear Cat. Stay in the now, live in the present .... the past is gone, and there is no changing it, except to learn from the mistakes, and treasure the good memories. The future is not yet created, and there are many paths it can go. Heavenly Father knows the possibilities the future holds, and that we will be fine if we put our trust in Him. Now is the time to let go of your H (who is not his true self right now), and let him decide his own fate. If he comes back to you out of his own free will, then how much more precious will that be. But, if he doesn't, then it was not meant to be, and you will be okay.

There's a quote that applies I think (not sure who said it):

“Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to.”

Take care, and I hope the talk with your H goes well, and that some things get resolved.

[cat03]

thanks for your words, i'm feeling pretty weak now.
We talked, I brought it up, might've taken H by surprise, he said something like "but how r we going to work on things if we are not seeing each other" and I told him how I couldnt' even trust him when he says he has court or is late a bit, that I'm always second guessing me and him and I can't live like that. That he didn't do that one thing I ask him, to at least tell ow that there is no divorce & that he is w/me without disclosing how much he lied toher. That he has to arrange his priorities and put me and the kids on the top of his list (because right now we are so out of the equation in his mind).
Supposedly he did break it w/her and ask her not to call her, but she is still calling him (and he's still talking to her) and she was trying to get him back but that at this point he doesnt want anything ever w/her, that she was trying to talk him into believing that her contract w/her john was normal, that there is no way he'd even want an R w/her. He says he is trying to slowly let it go, that he told her they r just friends now and that eventually he'll stop all contact, that right now he is too weak to confront her.
I did tell him that as long as he is talking to her the separation will go on. That because of all that happened if we r to have an R there can't b a friendship between them. I asked him what would happen come march and there is no D, how would he explain that, he said that by then he won't be talking to her.
The phone he set up to be active for 2 billing cycles, I reminded him that that would mean doubling our cell bill and extending contact w/her so he agreed to revise the termination date and he'd return the phone on wednesday.
I did tell him that I don't want to be the one telling him what to do and "make" him take steps to forget ow, that he'd had to do that on his very own, that I had tried during these past year to be a good wife but also to fix him and "make" him love me, that whatever steps he makes have to be genuine and of his own making.

I really really need your advice as of how this S should go. We were working out the details last night, we talked about the time he'll have kids (will come home and b w/them as usual on his 2days off until I get home then he'll leave.) Financially we are keeping the $ together as we both agree this is a trial and hopefully temporary S (that if it gets to be permanent we'll go legal). I will still handle all the money and will give him what he needs.

What is hard for me to determine is contact, how often should we talk/see each other. He actually asked about V day, if we were still doing something, I told her if he was up to it so was I. How much should we communicate? the S is crucial and necesary, but also I wonder if we cut too much contact we'd make the already huge gap a grand canyon.
Feeling drained and faltering a bit. We watched a movie after d4 went to bed, I went to bed and he slept on the couch, sort of hurt a bit but I guess I better get used to it. He will try to be room mates w/a coworker, he's working on that now.
What is really breaking my heart is telling my s9, he is aware of how D affects kids, that's the other reason we will have one last MC this week, we agreed on going to MC 1x a month (he'll keep seing his T who does believe ow is nuts) and that we'll star with a 3mth mark and will adjust accordingly.

[ACJ]

Cat after having just read your last post I can see you falling into the same pit that I did when my H left this time. As I think I have told you before my H really wanted me to make the decision for him to leave. I wouldn't and didn't. So he led me into a false sense of security by suggesting a trial separation. As this had happened to us before and he came home after a month I was happy with this and agreed to it. I told him he had to make up his mind within 3 months and that once that decision had been made there was no going back. Boy do I regret that now. He made his mind up in 6 weeks and told me just before New Year 2006 (the day I registered here) that he definately wasn't coming back and he hasn't. Little did I know then that 3 months would be a miniscule drop in a very large ocean. I also stipulated other things to which he agreed but never upheld. One of which was that he would never introduce our kids to OW(s). Another one was that he had to seek the help of a counsellor. He has never done that.

You see he didn't want me controlling him. Ironic really b/c that is exactly what his much younger OW now does.

I can see why you would want to keep your money together but personally I think that is a big mistake. 1) B/c it means he won't have to learn to budget for himself and so he won't see the destruction he has/is causing with his MLC behaviours (how many phones has he already bought/entered into a contract?) 2) B/c it means that you will never experience the freedom that not having thier financial burdens brings. My H and I NEVER had a joint account. At one point I used to feel guilty about that but boy am I glad now. Interestingly I found out at the weekend that he is using the same model with OW. We were always short of money (or so I thought) now I can't believe how well I am managing and for most of his absence I have only earnt the same as I did when he was here. I never thought my H hid money from me but now I'm not so sure. 3) You managing the money is a control issue. Let it go. Financial matters can soon be put back to how they were. Misappropriated funds (as most MLCers dabble in) are harder to replace. You already gave him money supposedly to pay back OW and it didn't go there.

[LoginName]

Cat, I kind of agree with ACJ. You know he's cabable of justifying incredible things to himself and you know the OW is crazy and can talk him into things. I vote for some separation of finances.

Money is an intersting issue. First there is the pragmatic part of it: take care of yourself and your kids. Second, there is the power issues.

My wife had and still has an issue over this. She is feeling much better with her own account and budget. Even though I always said that the money was OUR money, we were a team, and I acted like it, she hated feeling that she was dependant on me. She also feared having to take care of herself monetarily. She is very proud of herself now. My point is that money is loaded with symbolism, and perception is more important than reality.

I guess if you could give him an allowance and he had no way to touch Your money AND he could spend his money however he wanted to, that might work, but... think about separating your finances some more.

And! I think ACJ's point about you need to experience that freedome she talks about. This is potentially huge.

I kept moving toward separating our accounts when my W was WAS. It hurt my W that I didn't trust her, but how could I? It was worth risking her hurt feelings. Now I feel that freedom of not taking care of (controling?) another adult. It feels good.

Hey Cat? Did you, do you, scold our H? Example "That he didn't do that one thing I ask him, ". This sounds so much like my mother talking to me. I could be way wrong and misinturpreting, but I'm asking: do you scold him? Are there control issues here? How about saying you need a separation for you, to clear your head, to do some thinking (you centered, kind of like "I" statements) instead of "you did this" and that's why we are separating?

I think part of detaching is giving up control. That applies to the money, and to the OW, the mobile phones, etc. Control your life, let go of his. If he can stand on his own, grow up, he may become someone you really can love and respect. Maybe not. You can't control it anyway.

About ""but how r we going to work on things if we are not seeing each other"": what do you feel? Do you want to work on things? Tell him what you feel, using I statements :-)Keep it centered on you and your feelings.

You might not know exactly what you feel. I'll give you some ideas. Try these on and see if they fit, than alter to fit better, or use your own.

"I do want to work on things but for now I need space to think and to understand. I think I'll be ready to work with you on our R later"

"I do want to work on things but I'm tired and need some rest first"

"I do want to work on things and I will go to MC with you, but I need some time to myself now too"

I do want to work on things but I need to feel safe before I can and I need this space to feel safe."

"I do want to work on things but I don't think we can until your relationship with the OW is over. I'm not going to tell you what to do, I'm letting you know what I'm going to do."

That's the best I could come up with so far. I'll work on it some more. My point is to focus on you, your feelings, what you want, not on him, expectations of him, hurdles he has to cross first, etc. He chose what he wanted, you chose what you want.

This is getting long but oh well....
I think this will go one of two ways. Either he'll get his act together (and it may take a long time) and come back better than before and he'll find a Cat who is better than before, or he'll crumble and not be able to grow the way he needs to. If he does crumble, or grow, it won't be your fault or your credit. He's got to do it.

I'll tell you a little bit about my "stalker" in college, cause it's kind of like your H's OW. I met a girl through mutual friends in college. I liked her as a friend. She professed deep pationate love for me. I was young and very naive and idealistic and didn't want to hurt her. Our friends kept telling me to be nice to her, not to hurt her. She took me out once and got me really drunk. I woke in her bed, not remembering anything. I felt like a total heel, like I had used her. I actually slept with her again thinking it was the right thing to do to show her I didn't just use her.(I know, I wasn't very smart). She kept pushing for more of a relationship. She would by me gifts, and somehow leave them in my appartment. I kept telling her I liked her as a friend. This lasted over a year. I was dating my wife to be at this time too. Finally, this stalker attempted suicide with pills and left a note on my door. I took her to the hospital. Then she wrote an awful letter to my W to be, telling my W about all the sex we had, how much I loved her, how I badmouthed her, etc. That finally got me to see the light. Also, I had a friend who started giving me good advice. Cold turkey is the only way to deal with this. I cut off all communications with the stalker. I lost some mutual friends that way. The stalker showed up at my door one day and claimed she was pregnant and had had an abortion. This really hurt me. But by then I had seen how she could lie. None of the facts quite fit. I continued to ignore her. She called me and said she had broken her foot and needed a ride to the hospital, and I was the only one she could call. I told her to call a taxi and hung up. The whole thing was awful and is a painful memory to me over 20 yrs later.

Your H is in for worse, probably, but the only way he can fix this is to cut off all contact with the OW, the manipulating, lying OW. But he has to do it himself. You can tell him all you want, but he won't do it until he sees it. He'll have to face the consequences to, but having the truth in the open is better than being blackmailed. I hope he realizes this, sooner rather than later. But again - you can't tell him this. He has to figure it out.

HOw much contact should you have? For s9, come up with a plan and stick to it. for you, really look inside and do what you want. If he wants to see you, but you would rather take a bath, read a book, wash your hair, say no, not tonight. If you want to see him, do it. Don't expect anything. Don't put conditions on it cause he'll either lie or fail to meet them. And you don't care either way. Detach, detach detach, GAL, GAL,GAL.

You'll be plenty busy with kids, regular life, yourself, that GALing should be easy.

I hope I didn't ramble too much. I'm rooting for you.

[cat03]

You see he didn't want me controlling him.

Yes, I freak out and I check stuff and grill him about it and excuse it because of what he's done. What he's done shouldnt' give me excuse to behave like a prison sergeant.

How about saying you need a separation for you, to clear your head, to do some thinking (you centered, kind of like "I" statements)

guilty as charged, I was loading up with lots of "he has to do such and such for our upcoming MC session. I guess I am a bit controlling, I am insisting he goes to return that phone tomorrow, in my defense it is the only thing I've insisted he'd do, half because I dont' want to pay another bill, half so he doesn't have to use it to talk to her, then again, if he wants to talk to her he will.

I do want to work on things but I need to feel safe before I can and I need this space to feel safe."

I think this statement describes what I'm feeling best, better than my laundry list of demands.

"I do want to work on things but I don't think we can until your relationship with the OW is over. I'm not going to tell you what to do, I'm letting you know what I'm going to do."

OK, so no orders to let go of her, maybe I won't bring up the fact that I found a search he did online about "fake divorce papers". Truly, this is not the man I knew.

...hurdles he has to cross first, etc. He chose what he wanted, you chose what you want.

It is a hard habit to choose, to point him in the right direction, to look over his shoulder to make sure he does "the right thing".

I guess if you could give him an allowance and he had no way to touch Your money AND he could spend his money however he wanted to, that might work, but... think about separating your finances some more..

I will try. The problem is we have a few joint loaded credit cards and that it'd be hard to get rid of them if we separate. We both know he is not very good with his money and either we keep it together or we do a separation for real, which will be very very messy because we have everything joint. I will do some more thinking though and will ask him how he feels about me still handling the finances. And deep inside me it makes it less "permanent" if we keep our finances together, I know I know, I shouldn't fool myself, I'm scared I guess.

Financial matters can soon be put back to how they were.

Yes, *sigh*, they can. I guess I am still trying to hold on to him in that way. I had told him that i needed to see all receipts of purchases not on the budget he'd get when he is away. More controlling on my part, arghhhhhhh!!, and I guess that's the problem w/joint finances, I don't want it to be a leash on him but I guess it sort of is. We both agreed that nothing was set on stone and that we'd adjust accordingly.

LN, what a creepy story, the woman sounds as nuts as ow. Guess H still is too guilt ridden to see straight and wants to lay it off gently to also have a "clean" conscience even if that means more lying. He just does not want to understand that the truth will set him free.

[appleroad]

he said something like "but how r we going to work on things if we are not seeing each other"


she is still calling him (and he's still talking to her)

He says he is trying to slowly let it go, that he told her they r just friends now and that eventually he'll stop all contact, that right now he is too weak to confront her.

I really really need your advice as of how this S should go.

Cat, I couldn't help but think about your post of a few days ago where you wrote that H had brought up the idea of Separation and was gently insisting on it against your will for it. Now that you are bringing it up, H is acting like it's something out of left field. I'm afraid that if you are not careful and mindful that Sep will become not a venue for the battle for the marriage, but just another venue for the ongoing MLC craziness and ongoing triangle.

I agree with LIN that it is important to have a financial separation, so that you and H can become less fused. It is important for H to find out that you are not financially dependent on him, this gives you more power in the relationship.

As far as contact goes, the kids need to have contact with him, but you do not. It will give you more power in the relationship for H to find out that you are not emotionally dependent upon him and will no longer tolerate his contact with OW.