All Hope is lost/Help - Part 2

[Evie]

25 yrs - thank you for you for your reply.

I think you may have hit on something in your 3rd and 4th paragraph. In my self analysis I have wondered if it is all my fault, what am i like to live with? If you are right, where on earth do I begin?

Up until 12 months ago, I was unaware that H was feeling the way he did, I would never had said I was unhappy, just that our lives were so busy, but of our own making. So i was knocked for 6 when the bomb dropped.

Now I find that i'm having to look into myself and see where it all went wrong, what was my part in all of this, not an easy thing for me to do, especially as H has never said anything that I did personally/or habits/behaviours that I had were to blame, only the lack of space in the house and not enough time together. He has said recently that he bears a huge grudge against my XH for not being the father he should have been and for moving 200 miles away,only seeing the girls during the holidays. He said he felt as if he had been taken for an easy ride, someone who will provide for my XH daughters while he started a new life miles away. He believes my xh has been resentful of us and has tried to be venegful.

I pointed out that he knew we came as a package and that was what he wanted, and what if there was no father on the scence, I asked him if he would still have taken us on? He never gave me an answer to that, he said we were getting to the stage of saying things that weren't justified? I said he was controlling the situation again b/c he refused to talk more.

I think you could be right about the smothering, let me give you an outline:

I knew H was an independent guy when we met, he liked to live life to the max, burning the candle at both ends, until his days off and he would sleep constantly. I knew he liked his skiing holidays with the lads, and I have never minded this until 4 years ago.

I went out to work full time when I left my XH so that I didn't feel beholden on my current H for money.

We had S1 who was 3 at the time and I was expecting baby no4.
H has (or had) a best friend (i've mentioned him before) who lives this double life. They wanted to go away for nearly 3 weeks heli-skiing in Canada (jumping out of helicopters to extreme ski down mountains).

My objections to this were:

a) the cost (£3 or 4,000)which no way could we afford,
b) was childcare for S1 and
c)I was pregnant (and more than a little worried about his safety and his need to do it)
d) we were in the process of purchasing a property in France, which was and still is a huge burden, the mortgage has crippled us.

The friend he was going with didn't have any of the issues that we had, (he was also buying the property in france next door and was pressuring us for a decision), his wife is a stay at home wife with full support of both of her parents and the money wasn't an issue for them either, he would give his wife a huge sum of money to spend while he was away and then after his holiday he would take his wife away for the weekend while her parents looked after their children (was I jealous - yes you bet)

At the time i was so p****d off that H didn't think it unreasonable & would even consider going, I told him that he could go, get it out of his system, but not to come back. He didn't go and had never said any more about it, but it was obviously on his mind. He has since said that he resented this hugely and I still feel we have to agree to disagree. I said it wouldn't be so bad now, but when i was pregnant it was a huge issue to me. I think at the time i was mad b/c I thought he was getting all the fun and I wasn't. He said if I had a burning desire to go to the farthest point in the world and it would cost thousands and it meant i was away for months, then he would have found a way to have supported me. I said, a mother just doesn't do that, I could never leave my kids.

Now that i'm separated I can see how important it is too have your own time, that is one thing I have learnt. But I don't have friends that leave their kids (not unless they go away with husbands for holiday, leaving kids with parents) unfortunately we don't have that kind of support, we'd struggle for a night let alone a weekend/week.

I know I lived my life through him and just wanted to make him happy, I just wanted us to be happy, all I wanted was to spend what little free time we did have together - yes i admit, i think i styfled him and the more he pulled away the more needy I became, I was feeling unloved and insecure, so I tried to hold him back and clung to him.

When i try to figure out what went wrong, I over analyse. BUT, as much time allows, i am GAL, i go out whenever I can, I accept offers now that before I would have refused b/c i would have prefered to stay at home. I try to see the positive and i'm trying not to over react to every situation. I was critical, negative and insensitive and i'm trying to change that.


No wonder he left then????

xe

[seekpeaceofmind]

Well, clearly we each have to look at our own contributions to problems in our Rs. But, we shouldn't take on the whole blame either. A reasonable person might think your H's timing for wanting to take an extravagant trip was insensitve and maybe even selfish. Maybe you didn't handle it as well as you could have - don't know. It's easy for him to argue that he would have supported you in a similar situation, since that wasn't put to the test. I wouldn't think that your objections to the trip were smothering. I know that in my own sitch I didn't understand my H's need for space and time apart - and he didn't articulate them so now here we are, miles apart. It's good to look back and learn from the past, but it takes two to make it work and to make it fail and if he was harboring resentment, it was up to him to bring it up in a constructive way. I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, accept your own responsibility, but don't be too hard on yourself.

[Evie]

Thanks Seek.

Had a good weekend. H bought S1 home from an activity on Friday evening and he came in to talk about the business. Business over we carried on talking for an hour, just catching up on all the weeks news. When he left he said 'may see you at the gym tomorrow'? Meaning, if I was taking the boys for a swim we would probably see him. Anyway, I decided to txted him later and ask him if he was just saying in passing that he would be at the gym or would he like to meet up with the boys for a swim? He replied 'he had said it in passing but if we could meet up it would be great, if not.....' I decided to take the iniative and go, we had a lovely hour playing in the water for an hour.

Later I had a text from H, saying he would be late to pick up S2 on Sunday as he had to be some where. I decided to try and set a boundary and said I didn't mind as a one off, b/c i liked to be focused on work, it wld be hard to concentrate on work while watching a 3 yr old on the poolside and asked him why he would be late (wrong I know, but I wanted to see if he would tell me, I had a feeling he was looking at a new flat) He replied that he was looking at a new flat as his current place is too small and the early start and teh drive across in teh morning was killing him, he also said he wasn't scoring points but he had to work on the poolside with sons blah blah blah

Must go for now.... will continue in a short while

[Evie]

Wish I had just said yes no problem, i'll have the boys at work with me. H always turns it round to make me feel that i'm unreasonable, maybe I was, but his moans about how much harder it all is for him are of his own making. I didn't reply to the text, but later he text me again to ask me if I wanted him to buy a birthday present for S2 to take to a party that he has being invited too. So he wasn't that angry and I think he txt me to guage my mood, to see if he had upset me with his comments.

Next day, I went to work, H collected s off me and came back home. When I got home he had prepared and cooked a roast dinner. It was very comfortable and we chatted away, he stayed for an hour before going to work.

I texted him to thank him for cooking, it had being a lovely treat and great for the 4 of us to be together. H replied to say it had been a fab lunch just the 4 of us and it was good for the boys for us all to be together. H txted me later to ask if we were all ok as he had diariohea and he hoped it wasn't his cooking, he said he was worried and in pain. We have an extremely viruliant bug over here atm, which is extremely painful, and it was enough to concern me when H said he was worried, he very rarely gets ill, some cases over here have been hospitalised. I asked him to call me should he need anything. He replied saying he was going to bed and thanked me for my offer, which was very kind of me.

Good interactions and an enjoyable weekend.

X Eve

I spoke to a mum at school today (she doesn't know the sitch), she was saying that her H works 70 hours a week, she works 3 days. I'm beginning to think it's the norm for men to be working long hours - if they're in a management job anyway.

In conversation yesterday, h was saying he was hoping to do a higher diploma course with a view to taking over a diferent job in a couple of years when the person who is currently doing the job retires. He also said the flats that he had viewed were to small. I didn't go into panic mode about this as i may have done previously, I know I have to be patient and it's early days yet, at least the flats are nearer and the thought did cross my mind that he couldn't hide another W (if there is one) as he would be right under our noses, so I saw that as a positive.

I called H this morning, just to check he was ok. He said he had slept all night and was feeling a bit better.

I'll back off now I don't want to over do it with the contact.

[seekpeaceofmind]

Hope you and kids don't catch the bug, if that's what your H has. . . It's great that you were able to have so many positive interactions and it seems to be good DB to back off for a bit.

I'm beginning to think it's the norm for men to be working long hours

It's hard to know why, though - avoidance, satisfacation, ego, success, fear, unreasonable demands? I think with my H the reasons shifted and I definitely thought he was working more than necessary to avoid home in the last months together. I work hard and usually overtime, but I have always wanted to put the rest of my life first. I hate it when the job takes over - and I don't even have kids to tend to.

[Jen_Jam]

H always turns it round to make me feel that i'm unreasonable

Like the holiday he wanted to go on? So you're "holding him back"?
This sounds familiar. I got the same "we never see our friends anymore".... so I dropped ALL control, all demands and lo and behold guess who wasn't phoning our friends that often to see if they wanted to go out?

I suppose I'm saying here you've spotted a negative pattern of behaviour in your R with H. Not getting into the blame game, it's not about right and wrong .... but think about what you can do to break this cycle? It looks like you're in the role of parent to his child at the moment ... OK you have kids so they come first (I don't have kids so will never tell anyone how to parent) ... but is there any other stuff which can change? Have a think .... this could be a useful 180.

[Evie]

Thanks SPOM and Jen,

Jen I understand what your saying, again you are spot on!!!It has occured to me that I parent H, not a nice thought at all. But I don't know in what circumstances I parent him or how to break the cycle? Any ideas?

I know if we have ever had a disagreement or more recently R talks (post bomb)he will always state his point, then i'll say my point, then his reply always makes me feel like i'm unreasonable and stupid, yet at the time I felt my point was valid. I know there's no right or wrong, but it was always as if he wanted to be right and to have the last word. Have I become weak and allowed him to manipulate me? My last husband was a verbal bully and clever with words. When I left him my self esteem was shot to pieces, now i'm concerned that unconciously i'm allowing it to happen again?

My SIL phoned me today, she told me of a friend of hers who has just split up from her boyfriend of 2 years. The friend was ready for commitment and babies and the boyfriend had been stringing her a long. At christmas he told her he loved her, but he didn't want babies etc. My SIl said he sounded just like my H (commitment and responisibilty phobic), she asked if the situation between us is still the same and had I tried talking to H about our R and future. She's a straight talker and says what she feels. I said I needed support and time and that I live in hope, I said i'm not ready to move on so why rush him to talk when he doesn't know himself what he wants? I was pleased I managed to stay calm and ask for support, but it still unsettled me to think that she and my BIL think there is no hope for us getting back together.

At this moment in time, I feel we get on as friends better than we have got on over the last couple of years, I know it's only in short bursts that we see each other and the conversations are more condensed, but I have this nagging doubt that this is his lot, he's happy with the sitch and that he's not or will ever will miss me again as a wife?

x Eve

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Dis,

your thread is getting into the meat of many marital issues. Our own part in our pain is terribly frightening but in a way, should not be. Because if there is something in US that caused our pain, or at least contributed to the negative situation, thank GOD that is one thing we CAN control. Make sense? So fear not and dig deep. You will benefit no matter what.

Your h comments about the vacation reminds me of my h's behavior a few years back when his "MLC" was peaking. ( "MLC" or whatever...well sometimes I think the "MLC" is just a nicer label than "Selfish/immature".

But your h also complained about the burden of another man's children in the home, despite knowing ahead of time that you were a package deal...that sucks. Really he is the lucky one because the biological father lost out big time and your h was so damn fortunate to have had daughters in his life. If he only weren't blind by the self inflicted burdens of his lifestyle, he might be able to see the forest instead of the trees. How dare he complain about the girls, and never notice YOUR burdens? Your workload? Who does he think raised the kids? Sorry but he sounds very selfish and maybe it's a phase. I think F. Scott Fitzgerald said "Every man deserves to be an ass, once in his life." Maybe he meant MLC's..

On the other hand, your first h, (bio father of the girls) did skip out on the girls and barely sees them, correct? It IS a bit odd that your 2nd h is also the type to place child rearing low on his priority list. Why is that? Is it merely a byproduct of being a workaholic? Is it what you were looking for? Sometimes those things go hand in hand. My h was a workaholic. He is not one right now. But that could change. He is evolving, sometimes too slowly for me and sometimes I recall things he did that STILL bug the crap out of me. But maybe, maybe, that's just MY problem and i have to own it, and not "share' it with him because it is rarely productive.

NEWS FLASH on my end, not to hijack the thread, but to mention, is my MIL suddenly developed dramatic personality changes, acted drunk, fell, etc. and this started 3 weeks ago. She is on the other side of the country, and turns out she has a brain tumor. Today H took our d10 to go back east before her surgery Thursday. It is ultimately a fatal brain tumor, but the time line could literally be weeks, or years. Ironically, my BIL (sister's h, who is British, fyi) also has a brain tumor and is having surgery the day after my mil! (What are the odds?).

So, I'm alone here in the arctic, working on a trial that should end soon. I'm also mentally waiting for the call to know when to come. Regardless, I'll visit in weeks, unless I have to go earlier... This will be a big tough thing for H to deal with. He is a physician and yet, she may not be saved. He can't "fix" this. I lost my dad a decade ago and it was a BIG deal for me. I went to therapy and took meds for 6 months. I believe this will be the hardest experience of h's life and unfortunately, it coincides with a tremendous need for us to leave this place and for him to find a job in the continental US...What a drag.

I guess The question is what OUR role, as supportive spouses is, in these circumstances? Did anything like that happen with your h? Has he had any triggering events, or is it all a series of small things piling up on him, at least, in his mind?

It always struck me as convenient and idiotic when men would feel trapped and unduly burdened by the birth of a child, or stepchild they knew about before M. Hello? Who goes through pregnancy and delivers, and God knows, who gets up at all hours of the night for the newborn? I mean, h helped some, but I'm talking 10%. Ummm, nope, I don't see the "trap" that children are to their fathers. I love my kids, don't get me wrong. They're the best things I've got in my life.
But H's career did not change an iota when we had children. MINE did, a lot. I wouldn't trade the choices I made, but it was really different than H's experience.

Was your H happy at the births of the boys? When did your H Seem to be happiest to you? What changed? Just food for thought.
j-

[Evie]

25 yrs

I have to go to yoga in a minute, but I just wanted to say i was nodding all the way through reading your post. I will reply tomorrow when I have more time.

About your MIL & BIL - i am really sorry to hear your distressing news. The positive is that they can operate. I lost my close friend in November, she had a brain tumour and lung cancer. It was the lung cancer that killed her. She took drugs that shrunk the brain tumour. There is always hope. But i'm sorry for the pain it will cause to your family.

I wish you inner peace and calm.

((((25yrsmlc))))

X Dis

[Evie]

Thanks Seek, Jen & 25 yrs

Seek, I also work very long hours, but like you have always thought I put my H first and tried to make us a priority.

25yrs - Thanks for your post, I think you are actually right with everything you have said:

I can dig deep and face the pain and try and work on my issues at least I would feel I had something constructive to think about.

What was your H doing at his MLC peak that reminded you of my H?

I agree that my H is being so selfish. Not just atm, but when I look back at things the signs were there.

Yes, 1st H only sees the girls during the holidays, but they have jobs now, so it is becoming less & less. They don't really want to go and visit that much either. He has promised holidays abroad that have never come off etc etc.

My H made a comment that he would never be like my 1st H. But I don't think that he can see that by leaving me, he is abandoning his kids? He seems to think he is there for them and I agree he is there for them more now emotionally, but physically he's not. He wasn't there last night when I had to get up to both boys in the night, he wasn't there the other night when S1 had a bad day at school and then had a nightmare about it. He thinks that by coming round at 7.00 am in the morning to do a bit of reading and then take boys to school and to have them stay over at his place 4 nights a fortnight is not abandoning them?

I wasn't consciously looking for a workaholic husband, i'm quite happy for the simpler life. In fact I have read alot about how we like to have the same kind of marriage as our parents. My parents were not perfect, mom imho worked too much and was never at home during the holidays, neither were that loving, they didn't have a social life and very rarely went out. I think subconsciously I was trying to re-create that relationship where every spare moment we spent together and didn't go out and I think I saw it as a rejection of me that H couldn't settle at home and always wanted to be out of the house.

In our early years of living together, we were renovating the houses we moved into. After those projects finished, i believe H has become bored.

I don't know how it became that I became the parent to his child. I feel I have been a single parent for the last 4 years and carried him along with the rest of the family.


As for triggers, could be a series of small events, like the kids, baby 4 was unplanned, my XH?.

His Mom died recently after we moved in togther, i think it was in May 94/95. She had suffered from Cancer for years. H went to the Dr for meds, but never took them, I never saw him cry or grieve and he never talked about it.

His parents also divorced when he was 13, he believed his Dad was too blame, but his mom had had affair/affairs and dad walked out. he was full of promises that never came off and he was unreliable as a father and still is imho. We don't get on. He suffers from depression and as far as I know he still takes meds. H has said that from his father he has learnt from him how not to be a dad.

He is putting even more hours in at work than ever and has said he would like to go to yoga on a Tuesday night so cannot take S1 to his activity. I don't begrudge him any time to himself, but he still doesn't see that he's putting work before his family?

I agree my husbands career didn't change when I had the boys. I don't have a career, I have a job and i've had numerous jobs since I met H, albeit they were progressively better jobs because he supported me and believed in me. I made a decision to change jobs after baby no4 was born, (however, I regret this decision now, I had a good job with prospects). I wanted to go part time and have more time with the family, looking back now I don't think H was that supportive. After 5 months I went full time, plus i still do all the accounts for our small business so i probably work 6+ days a week. I still don't think it's enough for H? I feel he has really high expectations of me (and himself and the family). He doesn't seem to appreciate exactly how hard i work and that really upsets and angers me.

Yesterday for example, H was on a course, but before the course started he was reading the paper. There was job advertised in one our of countries top papers (The Times) for a PA's job in London. H texted me and told me to have a look in the paper, he said I should put a letter into our employer for more money. Then another text off him to say 'YOUR UNDERPAID'. The fact is that London salaries are higher than where we are b/c the cost of living is so much more expensive, so it's all relative. Ok my job may be boring and I might be underpaid ( I recently had a pay rise, but he doesn't that)but when weighing the prons and cons, the pros outweigh the cons and atm i need all the flexibility I cant get, plus my boss is very understanding and supportive. My kids come first, I can't have a career when I can't rely on H to be there for them or me.

My H was very happy at the birth of our 1st Son. 2nd son was unplanned, although H seemed happy enough at the time, when i look back this is when I can pin point our probelms starting. H said it takes 2 to make a baby, I felt he blamed me - I had come off the contraceptive pill and asked him to have a vascetomy, which he wouldn't do. We got away with it for a few months and I believed that we both thought it was our last chance to get pregnant and if it happened it happened.

Neither of us bonded that well at the beginning with S2, but H says now he wouldn't be without him and the boys are his life.

H seemed happiest to me in the beginning, when we weren't married, didn't have so much responsibility, the girls went to their dads alternate weekends and we had more time on our own. Buying the property abroad has finiancially crippled us although we still have a very good standard of living.

I feel as if the last four years I have been trying to stop a dam from busting, that i was working against the tide.

There just seems too much that H seems resentful for, for him too forgive and move forward with me. He says it's nothing I have done and isn't my fault?

Any advice appreciated

X Dis