Peicing hurts like hell and is harder than...

[LoginName]

thanks Lin, I do pan on seeing a C. I'm lucky it's covered by my insurance. So many here can't say that. And I think you are spot on. Thanks again.

[cat03]

I was afraid of this, of my sitch poisoning other's hopes, I dare to say I'm the exception rather than the rule, my own MIL believes my H should be commited or something, he has serious mental issues, so keep that in mind toots, your W was callous but not mental.

Have I forgiven her? Should I? Does she need to face what she did?

Forgive her not because she deserves it, she doesn't, forgive her because she has turned around and is trying to do things right.

Should I talk to her about this and ask her what she felt, feels? Maybe I'm assuming things I shouldn't, assuming what her feelings and thoughts are. Maybe she has suffered.

If you try to get into your W's head and make ass-umptions, you will always make negative ones, the picture will never be good. I for one would approach her & say that you would like to understand her state of mind at that moment (because obviously she's moved on and is not the same person).
Chances are, during her brief insanity she thought she was doing alright, that the kids were taking care of and that was the extent of her thinking of them, the rest of the time she just thought of herself...AT THE TIME.

Did I thank you enough for your support? whenever my MIL or the other 3 people who know the full sitch tell me how strong I'm being I credit God and I credit you guys, who've been my lifeline, just wanted to let you know .

[LoginName]

Hi Deauxlie,
You ask if I love her. Sometimes I wonder what that means. But yes, I do. D@mn it.

I forgive her, if I have the right to do that. It surprised me this morning waking from a dream and feeling that anger over what she did. I thought I had forgiven her. I know she fears that I haven't, won't, can can't and that I'll hold it over her head for years. My anger is shallow. My love is deep.

Tonight she called, basically because she was bored. After the call, I was angry and resentful because I felt that I had not "entertained" her enough, that it was my 'duty' to please her and that if I failed, she would think about those phone calls to the OM and how great those made her feel (how can I compete with that?). But, I called her back, and I told her how I felt and what I thought she was thinking, kind of taking your advice. I felt better after calling her. Maybe talking will work, although I am still reserved and, truthfully, withholding some trust.

I look forward to reading your post. It's good to know I'm not the only one with these feelings. Thanks for posting.

[LoginName]

Oh Cat, you make me smile, and choke up a little. You give the best advice. Thank you.

Yes, thinking about you did influence my thinking, thinking of you and others - but not poison, I don't think.

I felt bad posting, my sitch is so much better than yours, than many here.

I have to tell you, even now, with my W saying she loves me and wants to be with me, I'm glad we are separated. She's in another state for her job. I'm enjoying being "alone" so much. I feel I am growing more now than for years.

My W and I were H.S. sweethearts. I've hardly dated. I've hardly lived alone. This is nice. I want to be with my W. I've decided I'll move in with her when my son finishes H.S., but I'll enjoy myself now :-)

thanks for the words on forgiveness. I wonder if she'll ever tell me what she was thinking/feeling during that time. I know she suffered in a way. I want to understand, and yet I don't want to know too much.

My best friend, who was and is such a support to me, had his partner do a WAS thing to him during my crisis. He broke all ties, moved on. I envied him and kept thinking that is what I should do. But he told me recently he envies me. I had the strength and the patients to see this through. But, I didn't do it for my R, or for her, I did it for me. Because I wanted to and because I knew that after what she did, nothing else could hurt me (much :-P).

You and your sitch give me hope and strength, especially if you do it for YOU. Your H is messed up. Your sitch may take a long time to work out, but I think you are moving in the right direction and doing what you need to do, not just for your M/R, but especially for you. And, that's the best chance your M/R has.

If you've read all my posts (you have, right? :-) ) You know I had an affair a few years ago (it hurts to admit that). I bring it up again because I think it gives me a little insight into your H and others. I saw the how senseless it was, and the OW was not insane, so things turned out better, but I still feel the guilt. It helps me empathise with my W to a point. It keeps me from being holier than thou. It is awful to break up with the OW.

She emailed me recently. What timing. She emailed about a week after my W had decided she loved me. One week and I would have probably responded to the email to see if me and the OW had any kind of future. I didn't respond. I hope she is well, but I can't respond. It would be wrong for her, me, and my w. Your H will hopefully reach that conclussion too, and soon.

The best thing he can do for his OW, for himself, is to cut off all contact with her. I pray he realizes that before it's too late, but I pray harder that you are happy and your kids are well. I feel sorry for him, but until he faces his problems, he doesn't deserve much help and he wouldn't take it anyway.

I've had a few glassess of wine tonight, I hope I'm not rambling, and that my spelling isn't too bad, and that my points are lucid.

Despite everything, it's a privilage to have been part of your life, to get to know you, and to share your burden as much as I can.

good night, cat.

[LoginName]

Minkerman,
I am thankful. I felt bad in a way for posting. What do I have to complain about?

You are so right. It is the past.

This has been a lesson in unconditional love. I hope I learn the lessons and don't forget them.

I have strong opinions. Now that you've posted here, I'll read your posts and share them with you. Lucky you.

[LoginName]

So my W and I talked this morning. It's funny how I'll feel the pressure building on a topic, and then soon after my W and I will have a talk and I'll be surprised when that topic comes up. I wonder if I subconciously steer the conversation that way, or more likely, she is thinking about the same things.

My W broke down and cried a lot. She is suffering. She does feel bad.

I keep my feelings in, I'm worried that if I'm not positive, happy, optimistic, that my W will decide she can't win, I'll never forgive her and she'll want to end our M. I think I'm learning I have to face that fear and tell her what I'm feeling and thinking, even if it is scary in some ways.

She is opening up to me much more than she ever has (which still isn't much - she keeps so much inside).

And another thing I learned from this morning's talk. It's still not about me. My W is still facing the problems she's always had; feelings of inadequacy mainly, never good enough. Sure, I need to improve, can improve, and our R can improve, but she is still on her journey - and will be for the rest of her life (as I am on my own journey.)

This morning's talk gave me lots to think about. And even if my sitch is better than most, and things are going well, I still have hurdles and I see that people on the board still provide insight and perspective. Just like I'm going to open up more to my W, I will try to post more here too, open up, and get other perspectives.

[appleroad]

I'm so happy for you, LogInName. And you really deserve this success, you worked hard for it (I've read your whole thread)

I printed out today's posts from Deauxlie and imLIN for my own reference, I thought these were really excellent posts. I am dealing with/have very recently dealt with the same issues you are now struggling with. It is so perverse, but I guess maybe to be expected, that these things would come up for us just when things are starting to go well. I read the story of an LBS who did go on to reconcile the marriage totally after an EMA in which the WAS was living with OW for several months. LBS said that she experienced intense anger after the fact, after H returned and they were in MC together, with H committed to M and willing to work on M. She and H made an agreement that she could tell him her feelings during a time-limited session once a week, and she did that 4 times -- this arrangement, BTW, was not mediated by MC but by the couple themselves. LBS compared the timing of her anger and also her response to this anger as being like if her child crossed the road against heavy traffic -- what she really wants is for child to be alive/unharmed, and she prays for that, but when child does reach the other side safely then anger is experienced and the child is berated. I thought it was an interesting analogy, and coming from a veteran reconciler I paid a lot of attention to it.

After an affair, do you need to know what they did, what they thought, why she/he did it? Does it help to know?

Do you need to know that they aren't having an A now? Does it really help to see their phone bills, records, etc? (If they want to, they can cheat and lie no matter how much you track them, right?)

My guess is, that it doesn't matter. Either you trust or you don't. They can lie either way. My question is two fold: 1) in general (or specific to you, dear reader) how much do you need and want to know? 2) Is there some processing, process, that is important to go through for the LBS to get over IT and to move on and is that process helped by Knowing more? What is fair game to discuss with you spouse, when he/she comes back?

Full disclosure: my opinion is you need to know next to nothing. The less you know the better. If you find yourself thinking about the OP, stop! It's not acting "as If" nothing happened, it's knowing that it's not the important part of the whole sitch.
Comments?

Regarding your questions on 'disclosure': I read the Shirley Glass book, "Not Just Friends". Glass is a therapist after my own heart, having done original research and published her results in professional journals as well as for the lay public. She has a lot to say about the disclosure process, feels it is essential for healing the marriage after an EMA. And I did go through the disclosure process with my husband at the beginning of our reconciliation. It is finished now, and I don't think I would have been able to reconcile without this. It was he who recognized that I needed to ask questions and he suggested this detail as part of our reconciliation agreement. I found that I appreciated this a lot, that he would do this for me, even though it is not a comfortable thing for WAS to do.

Maybe it was because H was so forthcoming with disclosure and maybe because the prospect of policing him (related to cell phone, computer etc.) just didn't appeal to me -- in any case, although I know a lot of people do this, I didn't and never want to. I'm happier just waiting to see what happens next, enjoying the relationship we now have and being fairly optimistic about continued reconciliation. But I've gained so much confidence in myself over the past several months that I have the idea I'll be OK no matter what happens. Also (hopefully!!) I think I'll be more able to know what is going on in the relationship better in the future than I did in the past. I won't allow withdrawal from the relationship to go unchallenged or unrepaired the way I did in the past. So it's not a matter of worrying over xWS 'lies/future lies', it's a matter of keeping the relationship in a very good state of ongoing maintenance (what we likely didn't do before). Keeping agreements, noticing withdrawal, asking the questions that need to be asked promptly, dealing with relationship problems promptly.

[imLIN]

There was a time I wanted to know everything...every detail...but the counselor agreed with H that it really was not needed for me to know...that knowing would only result in more pain for me and images that were more real...he did tell me somethings much later...but only to lessen my angst that I was feeling...my imagination had things so wonderful with them...and very very sexually fulfilling...and with H being LD this was hard on me...but he did let me know that what I was imagining was not the reality of their relationship together...it wasn't "all that" sexually...this helped me...

I don't think knowing more details would help...even though at times I wondered...I had to put that out of my mind though...STOP the thoughts...

I do think it would be important to know if the A was ongoing...ONLY if you were working on the M...if the WAS was still gone that knowledge would really mean nothing...but if they are home...you have a right to protect yourself physically and should know...

I don't check up...H has told me I have a right to see things if I feel that I don't trust him...he understands that at times I might feel distrust...but I have never felt the real need to ask him to provide any proof to me...but it is good to know he has nothing to hide...like he did before...

Appleroad...I liked what you wrote...and I think you are very much headed in the right direction...This is where I am...and I think this is where all of us aspire to be...even if our WAS don't come home (mine did)...

"But I've gained so much confidence in myself over the past several months that I have the idea I'll be OK no matter what happens. Also (hopefully!!) I think I'll be more able to know what is going on in the relationship better in the future than I did in the past. I won't allow withdrawal from the relationship to go unchallenged or unrepaired the way I did in the past. So it's not a matter of worrying over xWS 'lies/future lies', it's a matter of keeping the relationship in a very good state of ongoing maintenance (what we likely didn't do before). Keeping agreements, noticing withdrawal, asking the questions that need to be asked promptly, dealing with relationship problems promptly."

Lin

[DiDi]

Hi LoginName... thanks for writing. Thank you for taking my message in the way I intended. Thank you for making me think. It seems like we all go through so much of the same emotions but I think we each have different needs to process things.

For me... I'm the type that needs to understand. I was absolutely blindsided by my husband's betrayal of the huge trust I put in him while we were in a very difficult situation.

He has told me, many times: "Ask anything. Anything. I will tell you the truth." Now, I'm sure he means that. But. It still doesn't mean that I should ask anything that pops in my head. I've learned I need to weigh it out and determine if knowing will hurt or help.

I've learned that he can only give me the answers he has. I've asked him. More than once. At what point were you able to kiss another woman. At what point did you go to her bed? See, I know this may sound naive to many, but I seriously don't understand how he could get there. I couldn't do it. Not because no one else would ever even know. But I would. It would change ME forever. I still don't really have an answer. I guess I don't think I'm ever going to ask again. Instead I have to learn how to not need that answer and still trust that the same circumstances won't ever prevail again.

While we were LD but reconciled, for some reason I had no problem trusting him implicitly. After we were able to live together again is when I started snooping. It was destructive. I'd see a number on his phone and obsess about it. My mind even twisted numbers to be something they weren't. Seriously. I actually saw her number, got up the guts to bring it up. Phone was in my purse. He denied calling/receiving call. I pulled phone out of my purse to show him and it wasn't her number at all. Ugh. Ya get through it though and even eventually laugh about it. He gave me a free pass through a few of those type of incidents. I was very clear in my intentions. I loved him with all my heart and wanted to trust him. I didn't scream or yell accusations. He could see the fear and pain as I agonized about how to ask him. Rather than get angry with me and think "She'll never trust me again", it seems that when I made a mistake it kinda made him feel better. We DB-ers are a tough act to follow sometimes!

My H and I are living together so yes, absolutely, I need to know the A is over. I do not believe I could/would go through this again. That's just me. I love what we have now, more than the relationship we had before going through this. That is the truth. However, no way could going through this process again benefit our marriage or my sons' future relationships.

What I need is the permission to ask. I have that. I've asked stupid questions like "What color are her eyes?" -- I didn't want them to be the same color as mine. I think those questions have the potential to be destructive.

I was nervous that being physical again would be hard-- that I'd wonder if something I did reminded him of her. But honestly. I know better. I just do. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose. I was not the first woman he was ever with in his lifetime. I'm just hoping I'll be the last.

[cat03]

I'm enjoying being "alone" so much. I feel I am growing more now than for years.
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I need some of that too, I grew lots last time,perhaps this time around I will reach a new level (the chaplain who preached at church mentioned how we have to go through something extremely hard before God put us in a new level).

My W and I were H.S. sweethearts. I've hardly dated. I've hardly lived alone
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Same here, well, we were college sweethearts, lol, he was pretty much my first and only boyfriend (I went out briefly w/some guys but just as friends on my part, I know they wanted something more,lol) H was the first I ML with and I never got to live alone, I went from my parents home to our own appt, I think that also was a minus in my sitch.

If you weren't to post your sitch going uphill, how in the world will I ever have an incling that it CAN get better in the long run? for you, for imLIN, for others that right now are together but had a long S? we have to be a mix bag here to be of any use, , I thank for all my buddies here. It makes my heart glad to hear you are doing well, so never feel at odds about posting how good you are doing))))))))