If each of you can accept that the other's pov makes a certain amount of sense, then you can work on solving the problem.
I dunno - if her POV is that sex 2 - 4 times a year is NORMAL, and sufficient, I just don't see how you solve this!
Look - marriage should involve giving to each other, and being flexible. That might involve negotiating the difference between once-a-month and once-a-week sex. But how do you negotiate the difference between twice a week and twice a year??????
She obviously doesn't think that sex is important or fun, and further, doesn't think you're entitled to a different opinion. SHE's the one who is willing to divorce rather than go to a therapist to resolve this issue.
Now - it may be true that her age and hormones are influencing her libido somewhat - but the fact that she stopped being interested as soon as you married implies that it's not a new thing, she just "bait and switch"ed you.
Think about what actions you would have to see on her part to be willing to stay in the marriage. You've already said "mercy sex" isn't enough for you any longer. So - she would have to not only start having sex more often, but also start liking it? Or at least show a good-faith effort to deal with her issues?
I don't really know where I'm going with this, but just wanted to make sure you know you are perfectly normal to think 2-4 times a year is not enough. And this is coming from a 51 year old "average drive" woman.
I hear ya', Ellie. I guess what I mean is that you can recognize that she has her reasons, even if she doesn't know what they are, for only wanting sex 2-4 times per year (or never). All these guys who are in marriages with virtually no sex HAVE been accepting their W's pov, even if they don't understand it. I mean, their actions show that they are in fact allowing her to go on with that pov.* That doesn't seem to be the roadblock... the roadblock is that SHE won't accept the validity of his pov.
*For example, if her pov was that it would be reasonable for her to go out to a biker bar every Friday night and give bj's to all the guys there, I'm guessing the H's on this BB would NOT tolerate that. Or if the W became abusive of the children, or cleaned out their checking out once a month. See what I mean? The H's don't like that she doesn't want sex, but they put up with it.
I guess I mean there has to be some respect for the other's pov even if you don't like it or agree with it.
Mrs hd is convinced that most married couples don't have sex because her sample is entirely from people on the verge of divorce. Hairdog might very well believe her, but he has the counterexamples of the people on this BB.
(Kett) The problem is that you are refusing to acknowledge or address the problem, which is, you are being inconsiderate in a *shared space*.
Yep. That's sort of the direction I got to thinking in...I'm pretty independent and mostly happy, so if I got involved with a woman who was also pretty independent and mostly happy, about what kind of thing would I say, "Sorry, that's just me, you gotta deal (or not, as the case may be)" and about what kind of thing would I have to consider altering how I live to accommodate a mutual sharing of day-to-day lives.
(Lil) To me this ability to respect a pov that is different from your own is a necessary but not sufficient condition for reaching a solution (and chances are, that solution will be a compromise).
Right. I think you have to be willing to consider a pov different from your own even if it makes no sense to you. You MUST accept that the other person's pov is valid. My mind boggles trying to consider doing that in my M because my W could come up with a seemingly endless string of problems that "had" to be handled. Once you accept that their pov is valid, you can choose to work with them in hopes of finding a mutually acceptable accommodation of pov's or you can shake their hand and say, "You're a good person, but I can't find space in my head to fit your pov in so if that's a deal breaker for you then hey, no hard feelings if you want to go your separate way."
If you decide their pov isn't valid and you tell them they're wrong or treat their pov with scorn or even just ignore it, you're no longer married to another person. You're married to some vision in your head of what an acceptable partner is and your spouse is just a person standing between you and a fiction you've decided to believe in.
I tend to find myself thinking about this situation as that other person no longer existing, they've just become an extension of me. It's a significant problem I have because I assure everybody that if you'd just play the roles I've assigned we'll all have big, big fun! WHY WON'T YOU COOPERATE? You must not be very bright. Obviously this thinking is related to being in Corri's Center of the Universe chair.
Look at MrsHD. Does anybody think she's married to Hairy? She seems to only be vaguely aware of the HD those of us here know. We know him as a flesh-and-blood man who wants to get laid every once in a while. Huzzah! She knows him as a guy who would enjoy celibacy if he'd just give it a chance. Who is she talking about? Guys like that exist, obviously, but their name isn't "Hairdog." Definitely in my M, it had been a very long time since I was married to whatever separate individual my W actually was. If I'd acknowledged that individual I might have had to do something. Whatever that something may have been, I either didn't know how to do it or was unwilling to do it so I had a marriage with an extension of myself instead, right up to the moment that arrangement became untenable and blew up in my face. I have a pretty good feeling that in the long run it wouldn't have mattered but who knows? We might have learned to work out problems instead of fight over them. I know that I would much rather have dealt with the sitch as adults and, if need be, dissolved the M as adults instead of acting like morons and just letting the d4mn thing spin out of control until it was a complete disaster.
So this, I guess, is my point. My advice to those here assembled is, if you aren't already, try being married to your actual spouse for a while rather than to an extension of yourself. See where it takes you, even if it takes you somewhere scary.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
In fact -- and I didn't see this at the time, but in retrospect -- things really started to turn around with us when I started actually *living* like I believed and accepted that he was Other, not just paying lip service to a pretty idea.
In fact (and let this be a lesson to me), it turned out to be much less scary than I ever could have imagined. I just needed to get to the point where I had enough faith to get the hell out of the director's chair. Now we each have lovely little trailers with stars on the doors and a whole set to improvise in; much much better.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
She obviously doesn't think that sex is important or fun, and further, doesn't think you're entitled to a different opinion. SHE's the one who is willing to divorce rather than go to a therapist to resolve this issue.
No kids together? She wants to leave over this issue?
Problem solved.
Seriously, it's only when you get rid of your fear of losing her that you have any chance of really working with her. Appeasing her isn't going to get you what you need. Accepting that your needs are perfectly reasonable, that she can either work with you or move on, and that you'll be fine if she does move on, will get you off to a good start.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
think you have to be willing to consider a pov different from your own even if it makes no sense to you. You MUST accept that the other person's pov is valid.
It seems to me that you're treating this as a logical problem, and it has to be more than that. For example, let's say your W has to have all the handles of the coffee cups pointed the same direction on the shelf or she can't relax, can't sleep, etc. Logically this is nuts. You DON'T have to accept the logic of having all the handles pointed in the same way, but (if you want to reach common ground some day) you DO have to accept that she has "reasons" (meaning explanations that aren't necessarily reasonable) for her behavior, wants, dislikes, etc.
You have to accept the PERSON and put the Assumption of Good Will into place. "Even though her desire to have the handles pointed in the same direction makes no sense to me, somewhere in her it matters, so I'll assume her good will toward me and will stop bugging her about it."
What Kett said.
There is something very scary about ALLOWING the other person to be who they are with all their annoying, stupid, nonsensical, irrational behaviors, needs, wants, etc. But when you are DIFFERENTIATED, you realize that those needs, wants, etc. aren't a slam on you, they have their own internal causes, and that the other person is dying for love and acceptance just as you are... well then, acceptance becomes possible.
And no, this isn't going to work in every twosome.
I have been on here for years, and honestly, I have not seen ANY LD women on here actually achieve success. None of them has ever become HD, the best that any have done is to become slightly less LD, except for one women that used drugs to bring back her libido. The other problem your going to have is that LD women actually believe that their POV is reasonable, when in reality it is completely unreasonable, but thats an endless aurgument. When you confront a LD person, even in a nice way, about their lack of desire, your essentially telling them that they are failures. Deep down, they KNOW this. They don't want to have to constantly confront their failure. Your wife believes your over sexed, this is common, but your not, she is UNDERSEXED. She says that people have less sex as they age, NOT TRUE. She is living in that LD world. My guess is that she gets this info from OTHER LD women, as they often hang together. She will of course ignore the comments from HD women, as they are not normal to her.
If your ok with divorce, tell her what you want, work on yourself, and give her 6 months. In 6 months, you will now the answer. If she can not change in 6 months, she never will.
Once again, I'm not expecting you to really hear any of this, Cemar, but I was in the mood to write out my thoughts.
I have not seen ANY LD women on here actually achieve success.
This is not true. I have achieved success. And my success is not measured by anything other than the fact that cac (the "HD" partner in our M) has told me that he is happy with the way things have been going for us, and that he thinks our SL has really improved. And for him that means that he's happy with both the quantity AND the quality. He is feeling loved and desired by me. And that's the only definition that matters. This is not a flash-in-the-pan. This is happening because I am firmly committed to a better M and as a result, a better SL.
And what about Miss IC and RedHeadWife and Mr.LFL? (And there are probably others I'm forgetting.) But these are all people who have been LD and who have accepted their HD spouses' POVs and are trying to improve their sitches. They have confronted themselves and are working with their spouses to do what it takes to get their Ms back on track.
And then there's RJ. She says she is currently LD, yet she and her H have worked things out and are happy with their M/SL. She has put a lot of work into resolving their problems. And if they are both happy, then it doesn't matter if she is LD relative to him. It is completely irrelevant unless one of them starts feeling unhappy.
This is just yet another time of many that you are speaking in absolutes, Cemar, and there are no absolutes when it comes to people.
LD women actually believe that their POV is reasonable.
Some do believe this, but I did not. I never told cac or believed that he was oversexed or that normal people don't really have sex that much or that there was something wrong with him because he wanted to have sex. I was always aware that we had a problem with our SL, but I didn't understand the reasons behind it or what to do about it. Now I understand the contributing factors and I am able to do something about my part of the problem.
When you confront a LD person, even in a nice way, about their lack of desire, your essentially telling them that they are failures. Deep down, they KNOW this. They don't want to have to constantly confront their failure.
This is not unique to LD people. HD people have their own failures and contributions to a bad R and SL. You, Cemar, seem to be the only HD person on this board who hasn't confronted himself about his own failures and contributions to the problem. LD people aren't operating in a vacuum and are not solely responsible for these problems. They are not the only ones with issues.
She is living in that LD world. My guess is that she gets this info from OTHER LD women, as they often hang together.
My best friend, who I have known for 25 years, is HD and always has been. She might even be more HD than her H. We didn't actually discuss sex all that much, though. But she had spoken of times when she wanted sex and her H wasn't interested. She has never spoken of times when he wanted sex and she didn't.
Another of my good friends also seemed to be HD, or at least to really like sex. But we never discussed it much either. In some ways, my lack of interest in sex did seem not right to me. I never really admitted it to anyone because deep down I knew it should have been better and I felt somewhat responsible and guilty about it. But at the same time I had a lot of anger and resentment about not having my needs met and I just didn't know how to deal with that either. Neither cac nor I knew how to effectively communicate our needs to each other, so we felt powerless.
She will of course ignore the comments from HD women, as they are not normal to her.
Maybe she will. But you don't know enough about her to make this absolute statement. A few years ago I had an extremely HD female cyber friend (whom I met IRL) and I was fascinated by the fact that she loved sex so much and wanted it all the time. I thought it was pretty cool. Actually I really admired her for owning her sexuality and not being afraid to be a sexual woman. It was just out there, it was who she was. That really opened my eyes. I had never encountered anyone like her before. My local HD friends didn't ooze sexuality like this woman did. She made a big impression on me because she was so unlike me. I found myself wanting to be more like her, and this was the beginning of my examination of my own sexuality.
If your ok with divorce, tell her what you want, work on yourself, and give her 6 months. In 6 months, you will now the answer. If she can not change in 6 months, she never will.
Oh, please, Cemar, you've been posting here for years and you don't appear to have changed one bit. I think your posts from this month and from several years ago are basically interchangeable. I guess that means you never will change. You don't suppose that has anything to do with the stagnation of your marriage, huh?
IMO, the best (and most reasonable action) he could hope for would be that within 6 months of laying it all out to his W she acknowledges that there are problems with their M/SL and starts taking steps to work on herself. And as Cemar said, during this time, MichiganMan would need to confront himself about his own contributions to the problem and work on himself. They both acknowledge the problem, and they both do the work.
But giving someone an arbitrary deadline to "change," which I take to mean "fix" the problem, with everything solved, is ridiculous. It can be a long process, especially if she has been programmed to see sex as a bad thing. You don't just fix that in 6 months.
One of the things that is making it easier for me to keep forging ahead with owning my sexuality is that cac understands that things don't happen overnight. When I've had concerns, he reassures me that it takes time. "Baby steps," he says. That helps a lot.
Then of course there's cac's part in it. He has his own issues to resolve and I will be as supportive as I can be as he goes through the process.
Ms. cac, you have some good points. No doubt there have been some successes. On the other hand, my review of this board seems to indicate that they represent a minority of the situations.
Originally Posted By: cemar2
When you confront a LD person, even in a nice way, about their lack of desire, your essentially telling them that they are failures. Deep down, they KNOW this.
I suspect you're onto something. I believe it was the great Jackie Robinson who once observed that "you don't accomplish much by giving someone the lowdown on themselves". The hurt must be profound(of course, HD's can counter with the fact that no one has the "hurt" market cornered).
I think it takes a really big person and a lot of courage for a LD to acknlowledge that they're not quite right and resolve to do something about it.
Obviously this thinking is related to being in Corri's Center of the Universe chair.