Ongoing affair, D papers filed, advice wanted

[chocolateeyes]

The next day my wife told me that I had destroyed any chance we had for reconciliation.

Michael, that is classic script. It's a way of deflecting fault off of the infidel, and onto the betrayed. It's usually paired with a re-writing of marital history ("I never really loved you, you know . . . ")

Choc.

[SirPrizeMe]

Hey Choc, (who named you anyway? sounds like a lover's name)

With all due respect, how can you possibly work on your marriage -- even her MLC issues -- if your wife has made the unlateral decision to invite another man into your marriage?

Isn't this just divorce-busting 101? The idea that one person's effort can make a difference in saving a marriage? I'm not saying, that I would settle for a marriage where she gets to have a boyfriend. The reality is, she had an affair and that is how I learned my marriage was in crisis. But now the OM is dating other women. She still talks to him, but I think she is a jilted lover. She told me he was her "soulmate", she dumped me, and now he is getting happy with other women. I think it is classic stage 3 from this website, here's a sample:

Women at Stage 3 may also be experiencing the ending of an extramarital affair, and the ending may not have been their decision. ... Women whose affairs are ending often experience extreme grief. They may become deeply depressed and express tremendous anger toward their husbands. They are typically unaware that they are experiencing chemical withdrawal due to sudden changes in their brain chemistry. As a result, many will feel that they have missed their chance at happiness due to their indecisiveness.

So what I am saying is, the unfaithfulness, while it stunned me, hurt me,... it's not the main problem to be addressed. The lying, deceit, abandonment of commitment - those are the core issues for my marriage. But those come from mid life crisis I think, not from infidelity. Infidelity was just an outward sign of the crisis. if that makes sense.

I will butt out after saying this, because you don't seem to want to hear it, but I think you are allowing your wife to deflect you away from the selfish decision that she made (and continues to make).

Please don't butt out. Gosh I need the talk, I really value the help in talking this through. Don't let me scare you off. Sometimes i push back on what people say and it's just my way of testing. It's not that I don't want to hear it. It's not that I have my mind totally made up. I push back as a way to work out the ideas.

Look, I think she made some really selfish decisions, and continues to do so, but that is par for the course for MLC. Standard operating procedure.

I cannot change that. My approach now is to empathize with her, validate her feeling that she was abused in the marriage, and support her desire to make independent choices, even if I disagree with them. There are not a ton of options for me here.

I could cut off all contact and proceed with divorce through our respective attorneys. But I'm pretty sure I know which way that will end. I could beg and plead. I'm sure that's not what I want.

Right now I am trying to keep the communication lines open, trying to validate her complaints and issues. At the same time the practical ramifications of leaving me will increasingly become real for her. The money. The find-your-own-house issue. The never-without-the-kids thing.

Gobbledegook aside, do you honestly believe you are a "batterer" or are abusive? If so, then yes, get help for that. But you've detailed for us here how you thought that was all so much b.s.

No I don't believe I am a batterer. But all batterers say this! Even still, I'm sticking to my story there! But here's the rub -if I validate her complaint enough to sign up for an AM program, will that give her the "Face saving option" to come back to me?

Maybe it is silly for me to say so, but I have thought a lot about my sitch, and it doesn't make sense to me. My wife is choosing a hard life, a life alone with much less money. No partner. No adult relationship. When I look back I KNNOW, deep down, our married life was basically good. She has esteem issues, and I needed to be more patient. She was from a quiet, avoid-conflict family. I was from a loud, lets-have-it-out family. But I treated her well. I loved her well (and still do). Really. I need to get better at it. I needed to be more attuned to her self esteem issues. I was blind, but not malicious.

But we are in this spot where she had an affair. I think she feels (secretly) as if she is the "bad girl", the sinner. If she was unhappy, she could have said, "Gee, H, we need to talk about our relationship. It's not as good as I'd like, and I'd really like to make it better." Instead she had an affair and plunged us into crisis. Like stage 2 from that same website:

Many women in this stage haven't felt any sexual desire for a long time. Many experience tremendous guilt and regret, regardless of whether their new relationships are sexual, merely emotional, or both. Most begin to experience what could be termed an identity crisis - even those who try to put the experience behind them. Constant reminders are everywhere. They feel guilt when the topic of infidelity arises, whether in the media, in conversations with family and friends, or at home with their husbands. Women in this stage can no longer express their prior disdain for infidelity without feeling like a hypocrite. They feel as though they have lost a part of themselves. Reflecting society's belief that women are either "good" or "bad," women will question their "good girl" status and feel that they might not be deserving of their husbands. Many will try to overcome feelings of guilt by becoming more attentive toward and appreciative of their husbands. However, over time many women will move from appreciation to justification. In order to justify their continued desire for other men, women will begin to attribute these desires to needs that are not being met in their marriage, or to their husband’s past behavior. Many women will become negative and sarcastic when speaking of their husbands and their marriages and it is not uncommon for an extramarital affair to follow.

In the aftermath of my discovery of the affair, I was not as strong as I would have liked to be. My expression of hurt, tragically, traumatized HER. In any case, she is now saying, it was all my fault. She is in full justification mode. She says our marriage problems were all my fault. The affair was a footnote. She's magnified my "crimes" to be large enough to justify anything, including (retroactively) an affair and her dissolution of the marriage.

According to DB principles, my best tack is to empathize with her, and validate. But that goes only so far. I'm looking to provide her an option to come back, without totally sacrificing her own ego. To open the door. If I have to take up more of the slack, in this time of crisis, in order to save the marriage, I'm willing to do it.

It's just darn tricky. I'm willing to kiss butt, but not willing to eat feces, you know? I need to preserve my own self-respect, because no woman wants a man who is always on his knees. (and I wouldn't want me either). I want to go far enough that the door is open for a face-saving return, but not so far that I destroy what is strong and respectable about me.

Goawd, all I do is talk talk talk.

On the "constant reminders are everywhere" - I just started noticing this. You know, infidelity is so common, but it is viewed as still a very serious offense culturally in the US. I notice it in movies, in TV shows, everywhere. Last night I started watching the 1974 flick, Chinatown, with Jack Nicholson, about the California water crisis in the 1930's. The opening scene showed a man facing his wife's infidelity.

W got a movie from Netflix before I moved out of the house - Premonition with Sandra Bullock. The central theme was a woman who has a premonition about her husband dying. But the husband was about to start and affair, and the wife (Bullock) actually said, maybe it's a good thing he died, because that way we avoided all the pain he was about to cause us in that affair...
Ouch!

I went to a parenting seminar - mandated by the county in all divorces involving children under a certain age. The counselor who conducted the course kept talking about keeping conflict out of the parental dialogue when children are around. She'd say things like "Forget about who had the affair, it's better to just put the blame behind you for the sake of the kids."

I mean, it seems like a constant barrage of guilt and shame for people who have affairs, despite the fact that they are so common! So I am aware of this and looking for ways out, for both of us.

Longest. Post. Ever.
Sorry everyone. Writing this stuff is apparently therapeutic for me.
bonus points for reading this far!

[chocolateeyes]

So what I am saying is, the unfaithfulness, while it stunned me, hurt me,... it's not the main problem to be addressed. The lying, deceit, abandonment of commitment - those are the core issues for my marriage. But those come from mid life crisis I think, not from infidelity. Infidelity was just an outward sign of the crisis. if that makes sense.

Sir,

When my wife (correctly, I might add) would say to me "All you want to talk about is AFFAIR-this, AFFAIR-that! You know as well as I do that we've had problems LONG before whatever it is I've done came along!", or "He isn't the problem, I keep TELLING you that!!" ... I had a simple answer, that I never, EVER wavered from:

"No, he's not our only problem. But he IS our #1 obstacle right now from having any hope at all of FIXING our other problems. A couple cannot possibly try to reconcile their marriage when one of them has unilaterally invited a third person into that marriage."

Infidelity is not your only problem, Sir, and it may not even be your #1 problem, long-term. But until the affair is over, and your wife no longer has any contact with him for a period of MONTHS, she will not be open to working on your other issues.

I cannot change that. My approach now is to empathize with her, validate her feeling that she was abused in the marriage, and support her desire to make independent choices, even if I disagree with them.

And I could not disagree with THAT, any more strongly! I really hope you're not saying that you support her desire to make the independent choice to have an affair? I know you don't intend to accept blame for the affair, only to acknowledge the overall conditions in your marriage that may have led her to feel lonely/neglected/whatever, but you are dangerously close -- if not already over the line -- to doing so.

Let me ask you a question: did your wife ever have these kinds of complaints about you being "abusive" and a "batterer" before her affair?

[SirPrizeMe]

Infidelity is not your only problem, Sir, and it may not even be your #1 problem, long-term. But until the affair is over, and your wife no longer has any contact with him for a period of MONTHS, she will not be open to working on your other issues.

Yep, totally agree with you here. Totally.

I really hope you're not saying that you support her desire to make the independent choice to have an affair? I know you don't intend to accept blame for the affair, only to acknowledge the overall conditions in your marriage that may have led her to feel lonely/neglected/whatever, but you are dangerously close -- if not already over the line -- to doing so.

Whoops! Certainly not condoning her affair. But I must agree that she gets to make her own decisions. I guess where I am coming from is, she has complained about me being controlling. And in the 18 mos since the affair, I have been. I have been unilaterally holding this marriage together when she is saying "I want a D, I want a D". (She waited 10 months to file). I don't take blame for her affair, not consciously anyway! Maybe the way I talk belies an inner self-blame? But I don't think so.

In any case when I say "My approach now is to empathize with her, validate her feeling that she was abused in the marriage, and support her desire to make independent choices, even if I disagree with them." I absolutely mean that if she wants to have an affair, I cannot and will not stop her. If she wants to end the marriage, I cannot stop her and will stop imagining and pretending that I can. I tried to persuade her to stay, but that felt like pressure and control to her, so I am dropping the rope. Yes, she must and will make independent decisions and I need to step back and let it happen.

Let me ask you a question: did your wife ever have these kinds of complaints about you being "abusive" and a "batterer" before her affair?

Never! It all was conjured up very conveniently after the fact. After she started IC you see, she saw the light. That I was the cause of the problems.

I want to be clear, I had a temper and I raised my voice. Never used bad language in the house, never called people names or was mean. But I'd raise my voice. She didn't like it. I was working on it. Clearly our upbringings were different. In my house it was ok to raise a voice. In her house growing up, raising a voice meant a drunken fight and possible physical confrontation. No way my behavior (raising my voice) hit the level of abuse, though surely it obviously pushed her buttons (inadvertently). My behavior seems a convenient excuse NOW.

[nutfarmer]

In her house growing up, raising a voice meant a drunken fight and possible physical confrontation. No way my behavior (raising my voice) hit the level of abuse, though surely it obviously pushed her buttons (inadvertently). My behavior seems a convenient excuse NOW.

Sounds like a cultural difference. That would be fine to acknowlege...but abuse, no way.

How are things coming on the property/custody front?

[SirPrizeMe]

NF, hallooo!
The Custody issue is still hanging out there. I senta lawyer-to-lawyer letter asking for more residential time with the kids, while we sort out an official parenting plan. She had a week to respond and then nothing. Her attorney is on holiday this week. So a delay of another week.

Next week we'll restart that conversation. In the meantime I still spend time "out" of the house with the kids, still enjoy it. I had the boys Sunday for a sleepover, and then Monday (MLK day, off school), it was fun.

I feel like you are right about the cultural diff. Of course, out of respect, I need to be able to compromise or retrain myself and I did. But you know, now with the rewrite of history, it was all bad, all the time, abuse abuse abuse. I'm not buyin what she's sellin.

[chocolateeyes]

Sir,

Thanks for clarifying. I have no doubt you mean what you say in your post, but I still do think your words come across as placating, and if they come across that way HERE, I would bet that they come across that way to your wife at times.

Just something to chew on.

Your final paragraph is pretty much what I expected, and I think it should answer your own concerns about whether or not you are "abusive" or a "batterer." It is NOT a coincidence that these accusations are only coming out NOW, not that she doesn't want to end her affair.

Choc.

Choc.

[MichelleLT]

Had to jump in after lurking for a while and comment on her allegations about the abuse. My H has told me 3 times that I am bi-polar and need antidepressants and counseling and serious help. My T laughed when I told her this. My friends laughed when I told them this. My family and my in-laws laughed. My SIL said H is projecting his own depression onto me.

Don't believe anything she says. I love how people call it alien spew - it's SOOOOOOOOOOO true.

[SirPrizeMe]

Hey - related - did I tell you all? I went to the county-mandated parental seminar last week. It provided basic instruction and coaching for dealing with children during and after a divorce. It was pretty harsh reality. No sugar-coating anything. They come right out and say Divorce is really bad for kids.

Anyway, I spoke with the counselor and she remarked that it is common for women in divorce to make unfounded allegations of abuse. She said that the courts are wise to it, and that I shouldn't worry my pretty little head about it. She said if I can bide my time, she is confident the right thing will happen in court.

So that made me feel better.

[chocolateeyes]

Sir,

That's interesting; my wife and I have to attend the very same seminar very soon. Do you live in Florida by any chance?

Choc.