day by day

[Michael Mc C]

Wow, so many positives in you H's comments but even the small number of negatives make it clear that he has a way to go still.

To say that you could never get over the hurt, I just don't know how I would have responded. I probably would have said (wrongly) "Give me a try." I don't know if that's what you H needs to hear right now. He needs to continue sorting things out and I guess you need to continue ensuring that your time together is still enjoyable. However, as you said, there is only so much you can take.

[fightingirish]

wow lwb, just wow.. I agree with michael.. I think things can be turned around.. it seems like he is feeling some guilt which is a good sign.. I think the night out is a great idea and you can feel him out then...

When are you going??

tal

[saffie]

*I know the things I would have to change (he listed them, and touched EVERYTHING on my list, and I have never told him my 'list') and I would be willing to do this. It would have to be done to make us work again.

*(next sentence) But I don't think it'll work.

*You won't be able to move past the hurt.

lwb - He may have been 'stating' these things but perhaps he was hoping you would hop in at some time and refute them - not the list of things that would need to be changed, (that personally I would acknowledge and let him know how impressed you are that he was able to identify them all), but I think maybe he needs a lot of reassurance that IT COULD work and that you WOULD be able to move past the hurt eventually.

As you know piecing is hard for most people, but surely he must be able to see that from all that you have put up with so far, you would jump at the chance to be able to at least TRY to put it all back together. Personally I think the work one does in pieceing is work you need to practice forever to keep one's M in a good healthy state.

And I sure am waving, ( and jumping up and down and whooping), about you accepting the invitation. You guys need to bank some good times together

[Heartbroken]

LWB,

He sounds so confused and like Saffie has stated above I think he's putting feelers out to see if you agree with him (on the fact things are irreparable -sp?) He seems to swing from one end to the other.

There is pain in reconcilation and working on things but there is also a lot of pain in divorce!!!! For the kids I think the pain would be worse - I fought as hard as I did b/c I wanted to prevent my kids from feeling any pain. They got some of it when we separated and were talking D but they already are forgetting the apt they so hated going to.

My H swears that Retro did so much more than MC - and you NEVER have to talk in front of the group or share anything personal - just the two of you do this in your room --alone. We did not end the weekend all in love again but it did get us back on track!!

You are doing awesome - keep at it!!

HB

[theoden]

LWB,

Wow. I stopped and prayed for your and your husband. I was given a moment of compassion by God for your husband.

I haven't followed your situation too closely. So perhaps I'm only commenting on what this thread says.

1. It looks like your husband can really go either way.

2. He's beginning to taste reality. Namely, the OW is no prize. He's not stupid, she's had 3 affairs her husband doesn't know about, and she's flirting with any guy she sees. He'll be one of the many men she's used and discarded. He knows this in his head. On the other hand, when you allow yourself to get inimate physcially and emotionally with someone, your body produces oxytocin, endorphins, dopamine and adrenalin which, in some sense, create a biochemical "addiction" to the OW. It's a love cocktail. Oxytocin is the real culprit here.

3. Yes the marriage had problems. And, yes, the OW is not main issue, though because she's in the picture, everything gets changed in your husband's thinking. Before the affair he could have looked at your problems more calmly and felt, "Hey we can work on these." During the affair several things happened to skew his view of your marriage. The first is the obvious. He's comparing the rush of a new romance with the feelings common in an established, mature marriage. So by comparison, he placed you on a lower level - he felt dry/stale with you but alive with her. Second, the biochemical cocktail of new love is addictive (which I wrote about above)it's hard for him to really give up OW even if he wants to. Third, there's the pscyhological mechanism of demonizing the spouse to alleviate guilt. To justify these good feelings of his with the OW, he must have to view you negatively. How else could he do so terrible a thing to you unless, in his mind, you were painted out to be a cold-hearted shrew? Fourth, there's also the psychological mechanism of judging a whole relationship by the most recent experiences. If your last couple of years of marriage were rough, he'll view the WHOLE marriage that way. It's irrational, but, clinically proven time and time again that the human brain works that way. And lastly, he feels he's done so much damage, you couldn't possibly forgive him and move on.

4. It would seem that your strategy need not change. Be kind an open. If you divorce, it'll make for an easier relationship, if you reconcile, you are, in essence, making the road home smooth.

5. If you are game to play with his head a bit, perhaps light non-sexual contact, like touching his arm, and a mini backrub might be in order. These, also have the ability to produce oxytocin. This might be percieved as chasing, and I don't know what personal boundaries you've set up, so you can ignore this point.

6. A little more patience might be called for. HE might really be coming out of his fog.

7. If you choose to be patient, then I think, perhaps, you need not make him feel like you are waiting with your arms crossed, tapping your feet, with a scowl on your face and looking at your watch like a victorian schoolmarm. Have some fun. This week I'm taking some needed GAL steps. Maybe you can join me on your side of the country. Do one thing fun and different this week that re-charges you and makes you more collaborative, creative and powerful. I think exhaustion and hopelesness is what really kills most of us.

Wait...but dance while you wait. You life need not completely be on hold until your husband emerge from the cave.

On on a more serious note, your situation reminded me of the passages in Proverbs where the young man is being warned to avoid the house of an adulteress. It speaks of her home being a lair, a trap, where his strength, hope, joy and financial well-being are being destroyed. Not only that, but his legacy -- the children -- are being deeply damaged by this. When I think of the destruction that divorce brings on people, I remember that the ancient wisdom of our fathers and mothers in the faith still speaks clearly and loudly to us.

God bless,

Theoden

[chocolateeyes]

You are a wise one, Theoden. That is just about the best description I've ever read on ANY of these boards to describe why an affair will actively block recovery efforts.

Choc.

[theoden]

Chocolateeyes,

Thanks.

Yes...the WAS will not really be able to look at us objectively while still involved in the affair.

But, I've been told, the time after the affair is over crucial. They still feel connected to the affair partner, the withdrawal feelings are powerful, they are grieving a loss. In addition, they have re-framed their marriage so negatively, they often can see no hope. It's common to hear, that after the affair, the only thing the WAS can think of is, "Well there's no choice left now."

I think this is the time when the LBS is ready to drop their guard and walk away. They want the WAS to come running back in teary-eyed repentance. It's going to take time for the WAS to wake up, if they do wake up at all.

--Theoden

[chocolateeyes]

100% agree, Oden. Sometimes there is remorse and lots of apologies, but more often, there is not. The betrayed spouse must give grace, and acceptance, and forgiveness, and not "lord it over" the wayward spouse if reconciliation and healing is to take place. Simply hugging him/her, and saying "I'm sorry you're in such pain," to me, is a great, acceptable way to handle it.

Those that advocate renting the moving truck, and cheerfully helping them furnish the separation love nest, however, I have no use for.

I try to live by "WWJD." He knew when to forgive the harlot, but He also said "go and sin no more," and he also knew when the time was for righteous indignation to well up and to overturn the money-changers' tables.

But that's just me. Reasonable people may differ.

[saffie]

Hey guys,

It's NOT ALWAYS the case. My H didn't appear to grieve the OW at all. He didn't want to bad mouth her but he did 100% complete recommitment to the M and NC with OW. I think timing has a BIG factor to play. My H was ready for it to end with OW and it sounds like lwb's H is heading that way. I didn't expect major apologies, (though I wanted them), at the time. He did apologise for hurting me but not the A per se. In time though he has admitted what a massive mistake it was and apologised for all of it and admitted it was the wrong course of action. Now he will also say that OW was extremely manipulative and he fell for it hook line and sinker.

Each situation is different. I think me admitting to my mistakes in the M really helped with him being open back.

[LL44]

Thank you so much everyone.

We had a great time last night. H drove, so I drank. lol We talked on and on through the night, barely noticing what was happening around us. Amazing. We talked til we fell asleep. H slept in our bed last night. He looked very nervous about it, but I just played it off. He turned down Retro. I knew he would, but he was more open to hearing about what it was all about than he was before. We decided for sure we are going to Florida together last night, he was all chatty about our plans while down there. He asked if it was ok if we invited his brother and fiance, said 'We could use them as a sitter and get out alone'. I am totally fine with them going, think its a great idea.

OW is nuts/psycho, according to H. She calls/texts him all the time, even though he has asked her for space. She tries to make him jealous all the time, and it actually makes him the opposite, even repulsed. She wants H to 'flaunt' their R, go out on dates all the time, travel together, tell everyone, meet families. H said absolutely not to all of this, and he told her my feelings would always come first. That he feels bad enough how much he has hurt me.

All that positive stuff being said, he still answers her calls, and talks to her when he sees her. But there hasn't been anything physical between them for a long time. There is a lot physical with us these days, and he admits she doesn't know. She doesn't ask, he says its his business. Guess who has become the OW?? Me. He doesn't see a future with her at all, could never trust her. She pushed and pushed him into this (yes, he admits it takes two), but now he sees just what he fell for. His remorse for what he has done is very obvious, he sees how immoral he is being, he sees the hurt done to all of us. He speaks about it, he shows appreciation and value of me, and he has come a long way. We have a long way to go if this is going to work. I have to be honest and say I feel him sliding my way a bit. Please don't let me be crushed.....

H asked me to be honest, he said if I still wanted him to move out, he promised he would. I said "not right now". I explained 2 months ago, I was trying to escape the pain (hence, begging him to leave). He said he stayed for the girls and to try to fix things with us, to make us friends again, because (hello, did he read DB?) we had to be at least friends to get back to where we were.....

I could type on forever......

Michael, TAL, saffie, choc and all, thanks for the support.

Heartbroken, I love how you worded it that you fought so hard because of your kids, to avoid giving them any more pain.

theo, wow. Thank you for taking time for that. I have some responses....

when you allow yourself to get inimate physcially and emotionally with someone, your body produces oxytocin, endorphins, dopamine and adrenalin which, in some sense, create a biochemical "addiction" to the OW. It's a love cocktail. Oxytocin is the real culprit here

Oh I can't believe you typed this. Just last night H said "I know what needs to be done (ending it), but I have to honest and say I am still coming down from a huge high of being wanted and pursued by her". You are amazingly on target, my friend theo.

To justify these good feelings of his with the OW, he must have to view you negatively

He did this all summer. Very hurtful. But now I see your heart can't be in two places at once. He had to justify it somehow. Not Just Friends has a GREAT first chapter explaining this.

he feels he's done so much damage, you couldn't possibly forgive him and move on

Not only this, but he thinks I am sooo done with him, and that I will never trust anyone ever again because of what he has done to me. I admitted to him that I have a lack of trust in men AND women these days. My little sheltered world was shattered this summer.

If you divorce, it'll make for an easier relationship, if you reconcile, you are, in essence, making the road home smooth.

I am focusing on this, giving it time. I know my heart prays he comes home and I hope I am not completely crushed to the ground after all these little signs of hope.

On on a more serious note, your situation reminded me of the passages in Proverbs where the young man is being warned to avoid the house of an adulteress. It speaks of her home being a lair, a trap, where his strength, hope, joy and financial well-being are being destroyed. Not only that, but his legacy -- the children -- are being deeply damaged by this. When I think of the destruction that divorce brings on people, I remember that the ancient wisdom of our fathers and mothers in the faith still speaks clearly and loudly to us.

Thank you for that. I can't thank you enough.