Now that you're at the point where you're no longer afraid of facing life without her and going through all the hassle involved, but you're not yet committed to pulling the trigger, I think it's the perfect time to give her every last scrap of information she could possibly get about who you are and what you need and so forth. Give her everything you once held back because you were afraid of how she'd react.
If I were you, I would email her a link to this forum, include a basic primer on how to search for past postings on it, and sign the email "hairdog". The ultimate "radical honesty" move.
Maybe she'll come around. Maybe she won't. But at least you can say you gave her every chance to and every bit of data that could possibly lead her to work with you.
I think this would also be a good move for haphazard and maybe karen1.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
If I were you, I would email her a link to this forum, include a basic primer on how to search for past postings on it, and sign the email "hairdog". The ultimate "radical honesty" move.
Maybe she'll come around. Maybe she won't. But at least you can say you gave her every chance to and every bit of data that could possibly lead her to work with you.
I would have thoroughly agreed with you about this a while back. Now I'm not so sure. Let's say HD used to be a fat, spotty kid with braces and poor fashion sense. If he was single and dating do you think he should plan on pulling out those youthful pictures at some point to reveal the "real" HD to a woman? I mean hiding pictures like that would be dysfunctional but it seems to me that the healthy behavior would be to just laugh along with everybody else when the album is randomly opened at the holidays. If HD has reached a new level of functioning there is little point in dwelling or revisiting past less functional interactions and reactions. Most important would be that he is openly and honestly communicating with MsHD the substance of what he is currently posting here.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
When I am ready to "deliver the message", it will be a face to face thing. As Mojo says, the important thing is delivering the substance of what I'm posting here. I won't share this forum with her because, based on past episodes of sharing, I think she would totally miss the messages, and start cherry picking posts from me that, in her view, contain lies, misstatements, omissions, mischaracterizations, etc. She would also likely cherry pick those posts which may support her viewpoint, as further validation for her position. The time I shared Michele's book with her comes to mind. She disappeared up into the bedroom with it for about 30 minutes, came downstairs and proceeded to quote from the book about how I was supposed to be doing this or that, ignoring her part in any of it, and that was the last time she touched the book.
I can deliver the message without sharing this forum, which is one of the few places in my life that I choose not to share with my wife, my kids, my friends, or my co-workers.
(hairdog) I think she would totally miss the messages, and start cherry picking posts from me that, in her view, contain lies, misstatements, omissions, mischaracterizations, etc.
Besides which you'd be doing it in order to get a reaction, which I don't remember ever working.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
In total, complete agreement. This kind of method only works IF the relationship still allows for an "assumption of positive intent". Mrs. HD assumes the opposite.
I think this would also be a good move for haphazard and maybe karen1.
Eddie, I already pointed H in the direction of this board, and told him my login name. He chose not to look. He probably is afraid of what he might find.
Hairdog: It's an interesting story you tell about fixing the light fitting for MsHD, once you have those "lurve" filters off how different people seem. I remember when I split with exBF after we had had the weekend from he!! telling eaching EVERYTHING we thought of each other, I said to him "I feel normal again now" he agreed but disagreed it meant we should get back together. A couple weeks later he was hanging out with some buddies at the house we had shared and I came in and started hanging with them and I suddenly realised that he was doing all the same stuff he ever used to do that would annoy me but it didn't matter anymore and in fact it was "just him" and acceptable and OK and even funny and endearing. It was the detachment that let me look at him with new eyes, with the same eyes that everybody else was probably looking at him with.
I think if someone does learn how to detach from a formerly fused R it is complete luck of the draw whether you love the person still after you have detached from them. I did love exBF still, but for one thing I didn't know how to do that without going back to the old R (which was NOT a place I wanted to be) and for another thing he wasn't interested - possibly for the same reason.
Balto asked if we were wasting time. It depends on what your hopes are. If you hope to get back to a place of lovey-dovey fusion then yes we are, that outcome is probably not even possible. If on the other hand we are striving to become differentiated individuals who are able to love others in a detached way then I think it does work to be here. Once we become detached the state of the M is purely down to the luck of the initial pick.
The strange thing is that although I know that's how it works that I can't quite manage the same detachment yet with H. Whenever I have had my moments of detachment I tend to feel a bit let down by what's left.
However life in the Hap household is better and more easy-going these days and we do have kids. The deal-breaker for me is no longer lack of sex (just as Mojo said) it is nastiness, grouchiness, general cat-kicking (with me in place of the cat). There has been far far less of that since he quit drinking. He also smells better, has clearer skin and less of a belly!
The love primer should go like this:
1. Find someone and fall madly in love
2. Enjoy it for a couple years
3. Realise things aren't quite right and use this as the signal that you are fused and need to start detaching
4. Assess the result and either fold or continue playing the game
It's probably impossible NOT to become fused with someone during the buzzy chemical phase - it's probably even necessary. But the step that most people seem to skip is graceful detachment.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Great post, fran! My dealbreaker is her disrespect, manifested in her refusal to accept my point of view (to the point of active scorn of it) about the importance to me of physical intimacy, while, at the same time, expecting total support by me of her point of view, which is that physical intimacy is not an essential element in a marriage, and that the "norm" is that most couples do not have regular sex.
Just last night we were watching TV and the issue of the tax rebate came up. We talked about the economy, recession, and how we're fairly fortunate in that our jobs are likely recession-proof. H: People will still need to get divorces. W: A recession would probably increase the number of people looking to divorce. The biggest complaint in the divorces I handle is about money. That, and sex. 'My wife won't have sex with me often enough1' or 'all my husband wants to do is have sex with me.' That's why I think our situation is just normal. H: Well, at least among the sample population of people looking to divorce. W: Not just them.
At this point, I thought, what a natural segue into the "message" of acceptance, desire, love, and sex, except for the fact that I'm not ready to "deliver the message." I'm actually contemplating sending her an email to clarify that my silence after her "not just them" statement was not assent to her position. My refusal to engage her on this topic has more to do with my general desire to avoid confrontations than it has to do with her wearing me down and getting me to come over to her camp.
Anyway...thanks for the post, fran, and I'm glad to hear that things are smelling and looking better in your household.
Balto asked if we were wasting time. It depends on what your hopes are. If you hope to get back to a place of lovey-dovey fusion then yes we are, that outcome is probably not even possible. If on the other hand we are striving to become differentiated individuals who are able to love others in a detached way then I think it does work to be here.
Um, not to be a wet blanket or anything, but isn't this a "Sex-Starved Marriage" board? Psychological mumbo-jumbo aside, wouldn't the most reasonable definition of "success" here be "We are more compatible sexually now than we used to be"?
I've said this before, and I think it's sad, but I don't think these techniques improve sexual compatibility. I just think they help you deal with it better.
After nearly 4 years on this board, I still see mostly rejection and hopelessly-clashing libidos. It's just that I also see a great group of smart people who have grown healthier emotionally, and are now much better able to handle the rejection.
After nearly 4 years on this board, I still see mostly rejection and hopelessly-clashing libidos. It's just that I also see a great group of smart people who have grown healthier emotionally, and are now much better able to handle the rejection.
Well, nothing is going to change until the person decides they've reached the end of their rope. Hairdog isn't ready to confront his W, neither is Karen with her H. So they will remain in limbo. I think it's fear that holds most people back. Fear of making the situation worse maybe. I don't know. All I do know is that the house has to be torn down before it can be built back up. That's what H and I have had to do and we are having great sex today. So it can work. But you have to be willing to tear down the house and most people aren't. That's why this place can be good and bad. It can be a place to vent but if you are not following through on these feelings in your RL R/M, it can be a waste of time.
