I agree. Don't do anything you're likely to regret. You might as well give your WAW a noose to hang you with.
They will say or do almost anything to justify their actions, including make up stuff. My W has also accused me of abuse -- she claims I put her through psychological torture. To hear her recount my supposed transgressions, how I was supposedly always angry and always put her down, makes me realize that if that is what is considered to be abuse then she was guilty of far greater offenses against me. (My severe depression just didn't happen out of the blue, mind you.)
"Things aren't going to get any better if you deny your role in the whole thing." For the record, I have never denied my role. This is ludicrous. I'm the one that wants to go to counseling. I'm the one that wants to work on the relationship. She's the one who avoided me for a year. She's the one who maintains a relationship with OM and says it means nothing. In the this-would-be-funny-except-that-its-true department, the last time she spoke to me about our relationship, she told me, none of the "recover your relationship" books applied to us, because the ONLY ONE WHO NEEDED TO CHANGE WAS ME. See? See how that works? She can say she doesn't need to change, and then in the next breath she says I am the one denying my role. See? Just look into this funhouse mirror, you'll see how it is. And no matter how many times I accept my role, it doesn't stick. She continues to say I am denying it.
"I have been scared. Scared that you will hurt me or kill me and/or yourself." I don't know what to say to this. She is the one who was medicated for suicidal thoughts. I never indicated this. I never hinted I wanted to hurt or kill anyone. I never threatened. I didn't walk around the house scowling or stomping. I never said "you don't want to see me angry" or any other such veiled threats. I've never said "One of these days! Bang! Zoom! To the moon!" She called me every name in the book, repeatedly. and I have never once done it. ok, once! the night I found out about the affair, I called her a whore. what a night.
"It's always been your way or the highway." Again, this is ridiculous. I can't believe she can even say this. think of one major thing where this is the case. We bought a new minivan when we had the 4th child. I told her, "you'll be the one driving it. I suggest you drive em all, and pick the one you want." She picked the most expensive one. Did I complain? Raise an eyebrow? No. She was worried about the expense, and I told her, "Look, you're going to be in this vehicle a lot. You may as well like it!" She wanted the option package, with the leather seats, but thought it was too expensive. I told her we'd get it anyway. She wanted Red, I liked Silver. Guess which color we got? When I ordered the car, she honestly didn't believe me that I ordered Red. I don't get it.
When we went on vacation, it was always a joint decision thing. The last 2 houses we lived in, she picked and I agreed. She ran the household expenses. I never even checked them. It was not my way or the highway. It was "I trust you completely." I recall specifically the conversation we had about household finances. We talked about how to handle the checking account, whether I should do it or she should. She said she'd be writing most of the checks, and paying the bills, and she'd just manage it. I agreed with that plan. I used to tell her, from time to time, "Let me know if you want my help on that." Really.
When she picked paint colors for the hosue, and I didn't like 'em, I painted the house that color anyway. When she wanted to go big on a home remodel, and I thought it was too expensive, guess what we did? When she wanted a 4th child and I thought we should count our blessings with 3, guess what we did?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
So I get that it is all alien spew, or most of it. But... here's the dilemma. She's written that I have anger problems, and she's given me a list of anger management and domestic violence programs. Like I said, I think this is fiction. But how can I be empathetic of her view without checking myself into a convicted criminals program?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Never mind what you _intended_ when you said the things that she believes is emotional abuse - what you need to consider is _how she interpreted_ what you said. It's like thinking about sexual harassment or bullying in the workplace - the perpetrator may think it didn't mean anything or 'it was just a joke' but it doesn't matter (according to the law) what you meant by it, but how it was received. If you have been told that what you say/do is emotional abuse, you have to listen and change your behaviour/words. Listen to what she is telling you and try to listen with an open mind. You may not have meant it that way, but she has received it differently. This is the ghost/shadow that you have to deal with. This sounds like what she wants you to do...the wounds run deep - just as deep as physical abuse does. In some ways it's even worse because the damage is psychological and cannot be seen. I've been (and to some extent, I still am) in your wife's shoes wrt to saying to you that you have been emotionally abusive. However, the difference between our sitches is that I have been faithful - my h has not. I have hit my h in frustration, anger and despair and more than once though I don't clearly remember the occasions. He has only ever laid hands on me once (Nov 07) but on that occasion he very clearly threatened me with physical harm. I know it's not right to list the transgressions to see who is at greater fault but I truly believe my h has a lot more work to do to regain my trust. I have a lot (a huge amount) to do in order to maintain boundaries and respect for myself and I would love to be able to work out if I really want to be with my h or if I am just scared that I am not worthwhile to be in a healthy relationship.
sorry to ramble, but you hit a nerve with me when you minimise your wife's pain (yes she is doing the wrong thing now by being unfaithful) about denying emotinoal abuse. find a counsellor who has dealt with this sort of thing. Say to him/her "my wife believes I have emotionally abused her. I don't understand and I don't think I have. Help me to see it from her point of view and tell me what I need to do to regain her trust.".
I understand where you're coming from. One cannot rule out the possibility of psychological/emotional abuse out of hand, and no one here seeks to minimize it if that is the case.
But neither can one, on the other hand, assume there is or has been such abuse automatically, just because someone says so. And when you're dealing with someone whose entire personality has changed and their lies and deceit have been on an order of magnitude beyond the pathological, you have to consider that maybe they're words on this allegation don't really hold much weight.
I know being oneself a victim you're inclined to place your sympathies with the accuser, but you have to also consider the source. The WAS involved in an adulterous relationship is high on the endorphines/dopamine resulting from the affair "in love" euphoria. They're very much like drug addicts, whose entire life's drive is to get their next "fix", damn the consequences. Some will indeed lie and bear false witness against their spouse if that's what it takes to get what they want.
And that's why counselling is required to have an impartial third party listen and reflect back what people are saying. Unfortunately the odds are pretty high that the WAS will still not listen, but at least the LBS is still trying and looking under every rock for solutions.
It's so much easier to give advice than it is to receive isn't it? Plus, I must confess I ahven't gone back through SirPrizeMe's whole story, just the last few pages so undoubtedly I'm missing a lot of background. just wanted to put forth a differing opinion.
I don't think counseling is going to do anything so long as there is an active affair going on. The "in love" brain chemicals pretty much shut down every attempt at love deposits and even imparting of common sense.
The first thing that needs to happen is to get her to agree to no-contact and come back and work on the marriage, IMHO. If anything, a BAD counselor might be used as a validation for her affair; sad, but true. A very good, PRO-MARRIAGE counselor certainly couldn't HURT, but again, his wife is not going to be open to it as long as those PEAs are runnin' around that pretty little brain of hers.
LT and NCB, thanks for picking up on this. The issue you are discussing is the thing that I am considering, too.
I'm willing to walk through fire for this marriage. That includes anger management classes or remediation for what may be an abusive personality. On the other hand, I'm in divorce proceedings, and if I do that, will I risk my custody rights? And also I think my W is in MLC and so how much of this is unfounded baloney, and how much is real? (That I believe she is in MLC is why I think I ought to be on the MLC forum. Infidelity is not the core issue, I've come to believe.)
I do not wish to rule out psych/emotional abuse, out of hand. That's why I keep bringing it up.
I also don't want to minimize her pain. Shoot, I can see the pain in her face. I can see it in the accusations she flings at me. I see she is in pain. It's real, it's big, and I'm sure it is weighing on her. I wish I could make it all go away. Here's the question - did I cause that pain or was I merely present for its emergence? I think her FOO issues are pretty big here. (See my summary for quick details) I am willing to take credit for my part, but not 100% blame. And aside from whether I caused it, what can I do now to minimize it? to help? Seems like the most direct route out of pain is to face the FOO issues, but what can I do to help?
LT, you said "that's why counseling is required, to have an impartial third party listen etc..." But W has it from an abuser's support group that a batterer (that is what she calls me) does not get cured by marriage counseling. A batterer only manipulates the MC experience to put all the blame on the battered spouse. On the basis of that guidance, she refuses counseling and says "Get it through your head: we're divorcing. Fix yourself, for your own sake."
I tried calling some of the programs she recommended for me, they are all for domestic violence and anger management, and they are set up to handle court-mandated cases. They all talked to me like I was a convict. I'm not sure I need that now.
And I am concerned about the legal ramifications of volunteering for such a program. It's almost like checking myself into a chemical rehab program - I don't feel like I need it, and going to rehab will then stamp me with a stigma that may have broader ramifications regarding custody and parental rights, should the divorce go through.
Last thing - I am a fixer. I am always fixing things. Smoothing things over, overlooking stuff, taking up the slack, making it ok. It's my way. There's nothing wrong with that until the other partner on the relationship seesaw stops doing their part. I think this is what happened in our marriage. This accusation - I am a controlling abuser - feels like a. just her view of my fixer personality, and b. ironically, just another unconscious appeal by her to my fixer side. It feels like it may be just a repeat of a pattern we've been exhibiting for a long time. She's not doing anything. She's not accepting her responsibility. Telling me it's all on me. Look, even if I am an abuser, it still won't work unless she picks up her end of the rope.
Then that gets us back to DBing principles, doesn't it? In WAS situations, the effort is usually one-sided.
So here I am, waffling. My confidence is shot because I thought having a good heart would keep my marriage safe. That was obviously false. Now I am unsure and afraid to make it worse. As if! isn't that sad?
Wow, Sir, I've heard a lot of these same things from my wife as well. I am not an angry person but there was a night a few months ago when I exploded. The next day my wife told me that I had destroyed any chance we had for reconciliation.
There was nothing physical but there was yelling (no threats other than having her move out). I know I scared her that night and I regret that completely. I tell myself that it's the situation that brought this out - unfortunately we had both been drinking too.
It doesn't take much, I think, to be thought of as controlling and abusive. Over these couple of months I have worked to show her the husband I have always been - calm, kind and level headed. It can take a lot of work to undo even a single instance of psychological abuse (perceived or genuine).
My recommendation is that if your W feels you have an anger issue you should speak with someone that can help in that determination. I wouldn't register in any classes without first speaking to a doctor/therapist AND a lawyer.
In my case I can pinpoint exactly when and why my wife felt I had issues. There is a good chance that sometime in your past (recent or distant) you said or did something that left your wife with a similar feeling - unbeknownst to you. Has your W given you any examples of why she feels controlled and abused?
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Me: 39/W: 37 D13-D11-S8 M/T 14/20
EA confirmed: 9/13/07 D-Bomb: 9/19/07 OM Gone since 12/18/07 W wants to fix marriage: 3/16/07
Infidelity is not the core issue, I've come to believe.
Sir,
With all due respect, how can you possibly work on your marriage -- even her MLC issues -- if your wife has made the unlateral decision to invite another man into your marriage?
And how can that NOT be the core issue that needs to be addressed before you can begin to work on your marriage?
I will butt out after saying this, because you don't seem to want to hear it, but I think you are allowing your wife to deflect you away from the selfish decision that she made (and continues to make).
Gobbledegook aside, do you honestly believe you are a "batterer" or are abusive? If so, then yes, get help for that. But you've detailed for us here how you thought that was all so much b.s.
