W asked me to pick up D12 at 5 pm. Said she would pick up our carpool kid at 3:30 but wouldn't be able to pick up D12.
She comes home at 3:30 after dropping off the other kid, and ends up talking to D17 who is unhappy about school and life. Around 4:20 or so she is done talking. I ask her if I still need to pick up D12 at 5pm because I thought W has to be somewhere.
She says no, she will pick her up. I said 'Oh, I thought you had to be somewhere?' Then says she "wasn't sure if she would have to be making dinner at 5 when she asked me to pick up D12". Then in the course of the conversation says she "thought she might be still spending time with her friend 'S' but they couldn't".
Lie. Her friend 'S' lives far enough away that for her to come home at 3:30 and then go back to 'hang out' with her is impractical. And the "I thought I'd have to be making dinner???" That has never been a reason for me to pick up D12 unless W is home and is MAKING dinner and asks me to pick her up. Not asking in advance.
She didn't seem upset that she missed whatever she had planned, just a little disappointed.
I let it hurt me. Stupid Stupid Stupid.
She then asked me if I was going to go to the talk at her work that the owner is giving on 'dealing with stress and anxiety'. I had originally wanted to go because I might get something out of it.
Then she added that she was only going to stay at the talk for 1/2 hour because she is supposed to meet her girlfriend at the Salsa dance bar tonight as they had arranged the other day. I said that maybe I'd skip it so I'd be home with the kids. She said 'are you sure or is there another reason? I can stay home with them till I have to go meet (friend)'.
I thought about it and said "I guess the kids will be ok for an hour so I will go. I might learn something".
Which I might. And I realize that I wasn't going to go because I didn't want to get hurt when I see her leave to go meet up with her friend.
But, it's an opportunity to maybe learn something about anxiety and stress in my life. And I'm NOT doing things because of the pain I am AFRAID of feeling. Maybe I NEED the pain to make it easier to let her go. Maybe being exposed to her behavior will push me farther away from her quicker. Help me to see who she really is. Selfish.
I wish this would go faster. I wish I didn't have to feel these feelings.
Okay frank. We can talk off line but I wish to post this.
I guess for the last time.
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Is there a reason you need to pick my words apart?
Words mean everything. When we write we think things though. Are you thinking things through?
What is your path? Goals? Objectives?
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When did I say she 'owes me'?
Why do you think she is not strong enough to support you? Go back and read your stuff from two years ago. Go back and read your stuff now. A common thread is that she is not strong enough to support you when you are down.
That may be true.
But you go on and on - like she owes you. Like you gave up everything then and now it is her turn.
What happened two years ago - well if you did it to only save her and your M - then you were wrong.
You saved you. That is what I read. But all you talk about now is that you saved her and she cannot do it for you now.
I don't have to look far for an example: your last post ---
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She knows I love her. She says she loves me. Our kids are healthy. The foundation for a good life is all here, she only had to come to the table and HELP me build it. Inside I am still the same man, with the same potential when given the proper support to get out of my hole in the ground
"She only had to come to the table and HELP me build it."
Forgive me, but sounds like someone who thinks someone OWES him.
"When given the proper support".
Once again, I pick your words apart. Since when, from a man of your caliber, do you need "proper support"?
You need my support frank? You need support from Amy or FIB or others?
Or do you need to ONLY support you???
What I think does not matter.
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What do you want? Why are you focusing your anger at me? What is it about you that you are angry about because I can tell that your comments aren't about me. What's going on Jeff?
I don't want a damn thing from you frank.
This is another time you threw the 'anger' word at me. I am sick and tired of it.
Just where the hell did that come from??
I feel anger toward you? Why the hell should I?
I am only trying to help. But you don't see that.
Focusing on YOU means just that to you, focusing on only YOU, the center of the universe.
That is why fixing the 50% that is your control is so important. Why continuing DB and giving her the opportunity to fix her 50% is so important.
But you see 0/100, not 50/50.
Where is all this 'compassion' you threw in my face?
But your way is to either focus on you 100% or fix her 100%. No in between. That is so unfortunate.
If you wish to go on in life feeling that you know it all, that all is either balck or white .. go forward.
But if you want to get your head out of your a*ss, then I am your man.
Learn from where I have been:
1) Don't buy into this detachment crap. It does not work. You and I are IN LOVE. That is a fact no matter how you spin it.
2) Instead of detachment, love her. It took me TWO YEARS to figure that out frank - what unconditional love REALLY means.
3) Do what is best for you without her in your frame. Own you frame.
4) Stop this crap about the money and stuff - that is you trying to fix everything again. You cannot fix it. Stop trying. Sure, you can earn more money, but will money fix? I don't think so.
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I want a wife who appreciates me even when I'm down.
So, You want to control that which you cannot? She needs to appreciate you (or OWES you?)???
Good luck frank.
It took me two years to "get it". And I got it with your help. I wish I can return the favor.
Maybe I am angry after all. I am angry that a good man is letting himself go down the toilet, despite the recent talk I read here.
Amy - he is all yours. Hope he will listen to you.
While some forms of detatchment might not work in all situations...... It is hard to "DB" when you are not in a state of mind where you are able to take care of yourself. A common mistake that I read on the boards are that people try to work on their M, while they are not in any state of mind to. Frank, a common theme on this thread of yours is that you are finally at the point where you are being honest with friends/db members about where you are at emotionaly and that you need to focus on you and take care of yourself. You need to not stray from that, and you need to thank God everyday that you have finaly sucked it up and asked for help. You need to not get distracted from what you need to be doing right now....TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
She only measures her life with me by what she DOESN'T have. Not by what she DOES have.
Originally Posted By: frank_D
I want a wife who appreciates me even when I'm down.
I see nothing here indicating that you feel you are owed anything but instead I see disappointment. You busted your ass 2 years ago for your marriage. You helped your wife grow. I'd be disappointed (as I am in my own sitch) to find out that my wife had not outgrown her tendency to run from issues hoping to find that fantasy life where everything goes according to plan.
Frank, it looks like you are able to better see what is lacking in your wife. You already know that this isn't something you can fix but I bet it sure as sh*t helps you get a better feel of what YOU need and what YOU want.
I don't believe you can fix YOU without knowing what's missing from the big picture. Although your marriage does not define you, it is still a very big part of who you are and therefore must be part of your self-analysis. I think these are very important revelations for you.
Latest Thread
Me: 39/W: 37 D13-D11-S8 M/T 14/20
EA confirmed: 9/13/07 D-Bomb: 9/19/07 OM Gone since 12/18/07 W wants to fix marriage: 3/16/07
I am sick as hell, woke up on the couch a few minutes ago barely able to breath, took some medicine and decided to catch up here while it was kicking in and now I've gotta be mean.
I read twice over the last 24 hours that Frank actually saved himself two years ago while claiming he saved his wife and ultimately, the marriage.
Well, that's bullcrap.
Frank, you did not save anything because you have to save yourself first and you failed to do that or you would not be where you are today. Secondly, it is not possible for you to "save" your wife.
The process of saving yourself when you were a LBS became retarded when your wife started responding to the changes you made back then; your Alpha male personna, so to speak. You thrived off that because it validated your need to be the hero. You however, failed to finish the job by continuing to look to yourself for your answers. And far be it for a man of your "intellect" to look to God. Nothing was saved. It was merely pre-empted for a time. Afterwards, you became complacent and suffered NOT because your wife lacked the ability to take care of you emotionally, but because you never learned to do that for yourself. You define yourself by the success of what you DO, be it save your business or save your marriage, and that is jacked up.
You have slipped back into talking more about your wife than your own self-discovery. Oh, you're using the words, but I'm not reading much about the revelations.
Additionally, I'm hearing the word "detach" and I'd like you to consider a different word instead:
Autonomous.
That should be your goal.
To function INDEPENDENTLY of what is going on AROUND you.
What will it take for that to happen? For you to eventually no longer be moved by her ever-changing attitudes, moods and behaviors?
I read twice over the last 24 hours that Frank actually saved himself two years ago while claiming he saved his wife and ultimately, the marriage.
Well, that's bullcrap.
Frank, you did not save anything because you have to save yourself first and you failed to do that or you would not be where you are today.
I agree Amy. When I read frank's old threads I thought I saw a guy who quit drinking, a guy who focused on himself, a guy who decorated his own room, a guy who worked through her affair, a guy who had the courage to really let her go, a guy who found his inner strength.
I saw much growth. That is what I meant above: I THOUGHT he saved himself then and that became my model and hope.
That is the kind of hope that frank posted to me.
But you are right. Now the context is that he "saved" her and that is all I am reading now. Thus my frustration.
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The process of saving yourself when you were a LBS became retarded when your wife started responding to the changes you made back then; your Alpha male personna, so to speak. You thrived off that because it validated your need to be the hero. You however, failed to finish the job by continuing to look to yourself for your answers.
Correct. I did not see that in the old thread. You said what I was trying to say in my "angry" posts.
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You have slipped back into talking more about your wife than your own self-discovery. Oh, you're using the words, but I'm not reading much about the revelations.
Yes again. I especially like the term self-discovery. It means moving from external validation (such as job, money, etc) to internal. To feel good about yourself and respond to your environment in assertive ways to achieve well-being. To treat her with love and respect despite the path she is taking.
That is only possible through self-discovery, not through "detachment". Detachment smells like indifference - self-discovery is feeling good about you and those around you.
But Frank agrees with you. It takes time to wean yourself off of the emotional roller-coaster when you've been sucker-punched. He's doing it. Give him time. Encourage him to get his career/financial house in order and then, eventually, to do things for himself: cultivate friendships in his area, take up a hobby or sport that will engage, him etc.
Jeff, I think the insight you offer about Frank feeling his wife "owes" him is pretty on target. He admits this. It's upsetting to him. However, underneath this, there's another insight at work.
What Frank wants is someone who is there for him at all times, not just when he's playing alpha-male or is happy about life.
I discussed this with him a few times. It's something I think about, too. Divorce Busting, the Way of the Superior Man and Making her Happy.com all say the same thing: get your game on, and then, perhaps your spouse will be drawn back to you. The point is you have to really change, and of course, strive to keep your game on. No slip ups, at least not major ones. There's just an endless, unrelenting, unforgiving prospect of pursuing self-actualization and growth in the hope of keeping the wayward spouse interested.
There's no real grace in any of these approaches. There's no covenant or promise that binds us together in spite of our feelings, sadness or performance.
Frank knows he needs to save himself and grow for himself this time. He's going to do it: I'm sure of it.
But I, think he's really hungering for a marriage that isn't built on "what have you done for me lately?"
What are those vows again?
Forsaking all others. In sickness and in health. For richer or poorer. For better or worse.
Vows. Promises. An unassailable framework that builds the house of a marriage.
He's asking a very important question. And behind that lies the most important question.
Amy, here's your chance to do a layup and talk about God ;-)
Last night she came home from the Salsa dancing around 10 pm. She didn't come into my room to say anything. Eventually I went to our bedroom and she was reading. She said hi. I put on my sleep clothes. She asked me if I was going to bed and I just said 'no, going to watch TV'.
Came back 1/2 hour later to go to bed. She was still reading her 'how to live the life you were meant to live' book. I got in bed and faced away from her. She turned off the light.
A couple minutes later she said "Remember Mr X, the old guy from the class we took? He was there and was dancing" I didn't respond . Then I said "D17 went to bed early because she is still sick". We talked about her for a minute, then she said 'good night'.
--
This morning W came into my office. Said she had to talk.
She told me that she was sorry she had been so mean to me so often in the past several years. She said it wasn't who she wanted to be and she needed to tell me this. Her tone was quiet, reserved and introspective.
I listened. Told her I forgive her.
There was an awkward silence. Then I said how I realized that there was a lot of work I hadn't done on my own issues and that if I had it to do over I would have made sure that we stayed in counseling and did the work we needed to do as individuals, and together, so we could get past the fears of asking for what we want.
I said that we have a lot of history and love between us and I believe that we are both at a point where our eyes are wide open and we can actually work on healing the hurt in our lives and in our relationship. That we really need counseling. She said she disagrees because it's been long enough, and she is 'done'.
She says it wouldn't have mattered because it was never meant to be fixed. She had 'asked' for what she wanted but I didn't listen to her. I didn't 'do anything'.
She said that we probably shouldn't have stayed together so long, that it was only a 'crisis' like the one we've been in for the past year that would finally push us to take 'action'. And that it's good for us because we're two people who need to move in different directions.
She says that she thinks I never felt 'safe' in our relationship and I told her that has been true for the past many years after the crash in my life, and after each time she has tried to leave but ended up coming back. I said that we failed to address those issues and to heal from the events. I mentioned that we did some things in the beginning of each 'reconciliation' but we didn't stick with it. We NEEDED to get counseling but failed to do it.
She said that she begged me to get help, that I told her I didn't need to go to 'AA' and was 'adamant' about not needing that kind of help. I told her that I had self esteem and anxiety issues and AA in the past had made them worse, not better. That I really needed help and support for my self esteem and anxiety but didn't reach out and ask for it because I thought I could fix myself, and I was ashamed that I was 'broken'.
I said 'If you really thought I needed to go to 'AA' or something else then you should have said "There is a meeting at 5 pm, took my had and dragged me there" Or said "We need help, I made an appointment with a counselor and we're going to it".
She said something like "yes, we talked about what we needed from each other, but we never took action. Now I'm taking action by letting you go"
She said the tension between us is hard for her to deal with. That the other day when we lay in the bed together, talked about things and I let her rub my back felt like we were 'connected' and that it would be nice if we could be that way more as we go through this.
I told her that I have a lot of pressure on me right now, that not only do I have to deal with all the crap that was on my back emotionally and financially in December but now I have to deal with her leaving so of course I'm not going to be fun. That I'm doing all this alone but I am getting help from friends and I now have a handle on what I have to do for myself.
She said she had a friend who had gotten divorced, has kids, etc. and was going to ask her about using a mediator that she knew who was also a counselor. She thinks it will be good for the kids, and she doesn't want to have to use a lawyer 'like last time' and be forced to say mean things about me. She says she didn't like that at all when she did it in 1999.
I told her that we weren't going to be in a financial position to do anything for a few months but that mediation is ok with me and I'm not going to try to stop her. She understands that it's going to take time.
When I asked her how she felt about me, she said "I feel like I'm letting you go, and I don't have to worry any more that I have to take care of you, or fix you". I said "that isn't a feeling, it's an action. Love, anger, hurt are feelings". She said "I feel like I'm letting you go and it comes with a lot of other feelings that change all the time and I'm feeling them as they come up".
We made eye contact most of the time and I saw hurt in her eyes, and anger at times.
I don't understand the need to make 'peace' with me during all this. I guess she wants to feel like we aren't going to be enemies or something. I also don't understand what 'letting you go' means. Or the need for the 'connection' between us while she is leaving.
Regardless, I'm done with the back and forth blame. I put my feelings out there for the last time. I told her I believed we could make it work if we would actually DO something but she is 'done'.
I let myself open up 2 days ago and got hurt by being hopeful. I'm not going to close down, but I am going to accept that there is nothing I can do to change this, only to change how I deal with this. Letting her go is the only choice that has been presented to me so that's the work I need to do now.
Feeling kind of sad, quiet, introspective. Not quite alone though. I have friends now.
Additionally, I'm hearing the word "detach" and I'd like you to consider a different word instead:
Autonomous.
That should be your goal.
To function INDEPENDENTLY of what is going on AROUND you.
What will it take for that to happen? For you to eventually no longer be moved by her ever-changing attitudes, moods and behaviors?
Figure it out.
It will take me removing the conflict inside me between my 'feelings' of needing to fix / control my environment and 'knowing' that when I am 'autonomous' my environment fixes itself. That I cannot control her. I can only control myself.
It goes against my very nature, my survivor personality.
I was about to say "and it's hard to do" but in reality it's only as hard as I make it be.
Setting goals and letting W go while living with her is a complicated situation. I could shut off my feelings for her and come across as 'cold' but keep my own self sane. That's how I've coped with my hard times in my life in the past. It doesn't seem right though. And it pushes her away.
