You guys just won't 'let' her be an 'abused' wife, will you? That's how she sees herself. That's how her friends see her.
That, and she has 'outgrown' being with Frank, the guy who used to be a fun person, but became down, angry, medicated with alcohol. Unreliable.
Why won't you? When would it be 'ok' for her to leave this marriage and get the support of the posters who are getting down on her? I'm asking only because I think I am 'getting it' and I want to know what the 'line' is.
This is called "all or nothing thinking". You blame yourself as I did that we caused all this through our actions and addictions and therefore they had the "right" to leave.
But what we forget is that EVERY relationship takes at least two people.
I agree we fu*ked up. But so did our partners. To say she is 'abused' or 'outgrown' is the 0/100 look - zero her fault, 100% your fault.
That is not only emotional, it is just not logical.
I will not bash your W, and neither are others. The board is pointing out the 50/50 look - that she has done things and is doing things that have not and are not helping.
Maybe I am old, but I believe that if you commit to a M and a family that you try to do everything you can to make it work. You try everything before making a decision to split. THAT is when it is 'ok' to leave.
She was a WAW and now appears to be one again? Is that working all the options? Has she done everything? Not.
This was posted to me frank about my xW:
Quote:
She wants you to be happy for her and pat her on the back. For what? Being a brave girl, getting the D, getting her independence, going it all alone no matter who gets hurt ... it takes more bravery to stay and try to make things work, but obviously she doesn't want to do that.
Your W is the same with the quiting, selfish behavior. The sign of a weak person hiding behind her "spiritual" and her friends.
'Abused'? I think not.
But also ask: have you done everything? Again, food for thought.
Why won't you? When would it be 'ok' for her to leave this marriage and get the support of the posters who are getting down on her?
I don't know about anyone else Frank, but this is how I see it.
Your "abuse" of her was not really abuse at all, but difficulties that you were experiencing and trying to handle perhaps the wrong way. You didn't nurture her perhaps as you think you should have, in part because you were a mess inside too.
In a REAL marriage, this is not abuse. It is also not an excuse to seek out other men for a fulfilling relationship. It CERTAINLY is not an excuse to bail on the marriage all together.
Marriage requires work and committment from BOTH spouses. It works because the devotion we have to each other serves to remove the desire to give up and walk away from our thought process. The LOVE, which is our commitment NOT our feelings, drives us to do anything we can to help the one we value above all others to find healing.
Your wife has no grounds for quitting.
She has no grounds for having affairs, emotional or physical.
She has no grounds for talking you down amongst her spiritual friends.
She has no grounds for divorcing you.
So no Frank, she does not get a free pass just because of your struggles. In fact, she gets a heavier 2x4 because if anything, she is the HEALTHY one now and she has a COMMITMENT to you and your life together. A commitment that she has chosen to abdicate.
These ideas of what marriage is and what it's all about are the very things that drove each of us to THIS place. Because each of us felt these ideals deep inside, and thought our spouses did too. We came here because we were stunned to find out that the one who pledged their life to us,
....for better or worse ....in sickness and health ....for richer or poorer
had somehow decided that those vows were not so binding any longer.
Just MY humble opinion.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
In a way I see your wife's point that things are worse now that she has told you what she's thinking and you are reacting to it. Before you were still involved in the marriage despite the fact that she had turned away. Now you are both turned away, and that is worse.
If you believe as I do that communication is the most important thing in a marriage, the fact that the two of you are now both looking outside for emotional support and talking to other people, not each other is a bad sign. If the marriage is to have a chance, then others need to be in a secondary position, and primary communication should be just the two of you. The question is, how to shift it back to that.
The best answer I have is to go to a Retrouvaille weekend. Check out the website http://www.helpourmarriage.org. for dates and locations. It is 2 days of learning how to communicate effectively. Does it solve all problems? No. But it does solve communication problems, and from there you have the tools to solve other problems.
You tell us of your conversations with her, you said this, she said that. None of it is getting either of you closer together. You are waving to each other from the bows of two ships going in different directions. You will continue to drift further and further apart unless you fix the communication problem.
If you think that you and she could have a better relationship than this, and if you think your kids deserve a happy household with both a mother and a father, then talk to her about taking 2 days to improve the communication. Book a Retrouvaille weekend. No matter which way it goes, together or apart, you will get a lot out of the weekend. It is a great place for spiritual growth.
In a way I see your wife's point that things are worse now that she has told you what she's thinking and you are reacting to it. Before you were still involved in the marriage despite the fact that she had turned away. Now you are both turned away, and that is worse.
She is not THINKING she is DOING.
Originally Posted By: Sara
If you think that you and she could have a better relationship than this, and if you think your kids deserve a happy household with both a mother and a father, then talk to her about taking 2 days to improve the communication. Book a Retrouvaille weekend. No matter which way it goes, together or apart, you will get a lot out of the weekend. It is a great place for spiritual growth.
This seems like 'R-Talk' which is counter to DB'ing. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad idea. Suggesting it may push her away.
I guess I can write her an e-mail with this idea. That way she doesn't have to 'debate' it with me. She can read it and choose her path.
I don't understand the 'have you done everything?' question. There's nothing left I can do. I can only accept this and heal myself.
What I am suggesting, and what others here are saying, is that your M is done when YOU say it is.
You are letting her set the dynamic. She is acting and you are reacting. You have given up already, even though you are still not thinking straight.
Break that cycle. Yes, heal yourself but don't slam the door shut until you are sure.
And even if you THINK you are through then think again.
Remember when I thought I was finished - go back and read what you posted to me to show that I was wrong. That advice built a better Jeff.
It is not over until the fat lady sings. Until then, DB principles apply. For YOU, not just the R.
When it is over, you have to look back and say you did everything. You have to say you forgive. You have to say that this is for the best. You have to remember the love.
You HAVE to - your emotional health requires it.
Quote:
This seems like 'R-Talk' which is counter to DB'ing. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad idea. Suggesting it may push her away.
I guess I can write her an e-mail with this idea. That way she doesn't have to 'debate' it with me. She can read it and choose her path. Comments?
Marriage requires work and committment from BOTH spouses. It works because the devotion we have to each other serves to remove the desire to give up and walk away from our thought process. The LOVE, which is our commitment NOT our feelings, drives us to do anything we can to help the one we value above all others to find healing.
I see what you mean. I can honestly say she didn't do that for me. What does that mean? That she didn't truly love me? I don't know.
Quote:
So no Frank, she does not get a free pass just because of your struggles. In fact, she gets a heavier 2x4 because if anything, she is the HEALTHY one now and she has a COMMITMENT to you and your life together. A commitment that she has chosen to abdicate.
I get it. Thanks for this explanation.
Quote:
These ideas of what marriage is and what it's all about are the very things that drove each of us to THIS place. Because each of us felt these ideals deep inside, and thought our spouses did too. We came here because we were stunned to find out that the one who pledged their life to us,
....for better or worse ....in sickness and health ....for richer or poorer
had somehow decided that those vows were not so binding any longer.
Thanks Bill. I'm slowly allowing myself to see her in a new light because of help from people like you.
I almost want to e-mail her these posts. Not a good idea though as it comes off as 'guilting her'. It's too bad that we find ourselves in these places. I truly believe I need to let her go, keep working on myself and my financial / spiritual situation, and she will do whatever she will do.
I'm hopeful that I will end up where you are, with a clear understanding of what REALLY matters and perhaps the love of a woman who is CAPABLE of real love and devotion. I now know that I will do better in life if I do NOT expect a wife to be my savior when I'm beat. That support comes from friends and support groups in general.
I know I'll get there, and it'll be great when I do. One day at a time. One day at a time.
You are letting her set the dynamic. She is acting and you are reacting. You have given up already, even though you are still not thinking straight.
Break that cycle. Yes, heal yourself but don't slam the door shut until you are sure.
And even if you THINK you are through then think again.
Remember when I thought I was finished - go back and read what you posted to me to show that I was wrong. That advice built a better Jeff.
It is not over until the fat lady sings. Until then, DB principles apply. For YOU, not just the R.
Ok, I'm not thinking clearly right now. "Don't DB", "No, DO DB", "let her go, fix yourself", "No, work on the marriage".
HELP!
GIve me a link to the comments you said I gave you. Please clarify, give more details and examples in your comments.
Quote:
This seems like 'R-Talk' which is counter to DB'ing. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad idea. Suggesting it may push her away.
I guess I can write her an e-mail with this idea. That way she doesn't have to 'debate' it with me. She can read it and choose her path. Comments?
Read this again. All about her and her reaction.
What do you want to do? [/quote]
E_mail her the link with a message saying that this might be a good thing for us. It scares me to think about it since she will likely say 'no, it's too late'. But it's a risk I guess.
I'm still not strong yet. Maybe I need to not do things like this until I have some strength.
Being fully aware of your entire situation, Frank, I DISAGREE with Sara.
Additionally, I thought you agreed with the majority that under these conditions your best bet is to save yourself.
At this stage, I believe that anything you do that even gets your mind geared towards "DBing" or anything similar is going to set you off on that course at your own personal expense.
The so-called "fixer" in you wants and needs further distraction from dealing with your own pain, which reaches back into your childhood by your own admission. Your DESIRE to "save" your marriage comes from two places, only one of which is your heart.
The other is your own need to continue to avoid dealing with your own demons.
You are worldly and you are stubborn.
What you want is another "project" that looks good on the outside.
That is not going to work again because the real problem with you is on the INSIDE.
WAKE UP. MAN UP. DEAL WITH FRANK.
Anything that would steer you onto ANY other course at this stage would be based on naivete if not outright deception.
