Starting to get it.... my 3rd thread

[ann25]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the response... I think at first, for sure, i was having sex out of guilt. You are so right about that not being the route to take. He could feel it and it was horrible. Neither one of us got much pleasure out of it, i don't think.

I think i'm really at a point now, where i'm doing it, not because i feel guilty, but because i want to see him happy. It has made a lot if difference in my attitude towards him. While it doesn't necessarily make the sex a whole lot better for me, it does for him and I do want to make him happy.

I know that i deserve to be treated lovingly, like his W and the mother of his children, but he's not in a place right now to treat me like i deserve. I've kinda made a choice to accept that until he's ready to forgive and change, so i have to keep moving forward towards that.

thank you!! ann

[DaveJ]

ann25, just a thought. Maybe the reason he treats you badly is because he knows he can and you put up with it. He probably feels like he's entitled to it and is taking advantage of the fact that you are "walking on eggshells" with him and trying to convince him that you are here to stay. Basically he feels that if you don't do what he wants, he can just threaten to leave and you'll cave. It certainly puts him in a position of power over you. The only way to put a stop to it is to set the boundaries and let him know that no matter what it's not okay for him to treat you like that and not panic if he makes his threats. You want him in your life, but you don't NEED him, especially not with that kind of behavior.

I think the major reason you aren't attracted to your H is the way he behaves and how he treats you right now. You are building up resentment and it will just get worse. You can't gain attraction back with someone if they don't value you and respect you. I think he probably feels that you are the one that's to blame for everything and you need to fix it. I recall my IC once said, if your S won't admit to any fault and points all her fingers at you then don't have much hope in saving the R. He's just as much at fault in messing up the R as you did. If he isn't willing to change, I think one day you'll just realize that this isn't what you want out of your R and he's not the person you want to be with anymore.... You are a worthwhile no matter what and it's his loss if he can't treat you right and act like he wants you in his life.

[ann25]

I'm glad that you recognize (to some degree) his behaviour for what it is. I'm also glad that you recognize that, unlike some people's panic'd kneejerk reactions, he's not out to dominate and enslave you.

I do recognize his actions for that they are. I know that he needed that and at this point he still needs to feel that "she's mine" thing. I don't like it and don't know how much of it i can handle, but I do completely understand it. If we hadn't been together very long and maybe if i didn't know his background, i might have thought differently, but I really do know that this is completely a-typical of him. Even when he gets really angry, he'll leave the house before things get to that point. He isn't doing anymore than i let him get away with most times, so i get to shoulder the blame for that.

I was really creeped out by reading the "rape/abuse witchhunt" yesterday. Seems like as soon as someone raises the "rape!" or "abuse!" flag, then suddenly, everyone thinks that they Must Protect the Woman, from the Evil Abuser Husband! And the man instantly gets demonized, whether applicable, or not.

I dont think it was applicable in this case.

would you please post explicitly, whether you view what happened, as rape in your mind?
As I view it, it was not, and you dont view it as such either.
Extremely nasty and painful, yes. but not rape, becuase you consented, and continued to give your consent throughout.

When you said "you werent in a position to say no", I took it as, "you recognized the terrible emotional hurt your husband was going through, and you chose to sacrifice some physical pain, in exchange for his emotional hurt".
Not that you truely "couldnt" say no.
I salute you for recognizing that, and choosing to make that sacrifice then, in an attempt to help your husband through that difficult night. Not many people are willing to undergo physical pain to help their spouse.

Honestly, i appreciated the concern. I don't call it rape for the very reason you mention. I said ok. I didn't stop him or attempt to. Although when i say that i couldn't say no, it wasn't only because he needed it, but it was because i felt that this would be a serious condition of wanting to stay with me. Also, if i had said no that night, i don't think he would have stayed home. He would have went out and did something stupid. He wasn't in a position to be driving or anything and I knew that saying ok, would keep him home.

I made a sacrifice that night for him. Do i think anyone should ever have to endure that in order for the other to feel better, NO, but i did cause at the time, i didn't see any other option. to me, losing my H for a second time, was not an option.

I think that most people who replied on your thread, are probably either from the sex-starved marriage area, or new, or just dont get it.
They dont get that your husband's reaction, is common, in circumstances where the trust and intimacy in a relationship has been tramatically shattered.
There's even a clinical name for it; "hysterical bonding". A google search on that may be enlightening to folks.

Men view sex as bonding. He wasnt trying to "hurt you" (and it's sad that you seem to have absorbed a bit of the witchhunt atmosphere by thinking now he may have been trying to).

he wasnt.
he was trying to "reclaim the bond between you".
It's simpler to put it in terms of getting back to a relationship of "you are 'mine' and i am 'yours'".
Unfortunately, people are getting all bent out of shape over the "mine" thing.

I do agree that some people don't get it, me being one of them. I don't understand how he could do that and see how badly he was hurting me and not stop. I didn't know it was that common and I find that frightening. I know that he was trying to reclaim me as his, that he felt betrayed and marking his territory. I do think though that a part of it was for him to hurt me. Not all of it, and maybe that was not the initial intention, but i told him he was hurting me and he didn't care. He got what he wanted/needed with a total disregard to my feelings. I didn't get that from anyone here, but i've felt that since it happened. He knows that things make me uncomfortable and he expects them to be done anyways. He wants to know just how far i'll go for him. i get that, but it doesn't make it alright.

Now, I do agree that he's taking the tattoo thing too far. But I think you would agree that to him, it's not about treating you as properly. it's about reassurance to him.
eg: "wedding rings didnt work to keep you emotionally faithful to him.... maybe a tattoo of his name will?"

i never even thought of it like that. All i was thinking is that it's just another way of showing that i'm not committed to him. And... after he asked for D. I took my ring off and didn't put it back on until he asked to work on it. Not that it matters, but...

i think that's perfectly true.
However, giving all-negative feedback, doesnt work well with people. With humans, you also have the ability to tell them, "do this instead".
It sounds like you took my advice on that already, and it's working well for you. I'm glad

He doesn't get all negative feedback, it's about 50/50. I just don't give in all the time.
I did tell him what else to do. It's not that i want kisses and affection like that from him at all, but at least when it's sweet and not aggresive, it's easier for me to respond positively to. That's why i appreciate your advice. I may not agree with you all the time, but when i do, it normally turns out pretty well!

I feel like i'm doing better. i feel like i'm understanding more. It doesn't make it any easier to feel like this, but understanding is always good. I actually found a site for people that had affairs and are dealing with the peicing back together the M afterwards. They all said about the same thing. 6 months to a year for forgivness and even longer for the other spouse to feel more comfortable with the R.

Thanks!! ann



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[Dom R]

ann25, just a thought. Maybe the reason he treats you badly is because he knows he can and you put up with it.

sheeesh. such pessimism from posters on ann's thread.

She's already pointed out a huge proof that the opposite is true; that he just doesnt realize what he's doing.
When she confronted him about the way he was touching her... he finally understood.
(he actually OVER-reacted, by not touching her at all, when she gave him a somewhat vague impression she didnt like him touching her. So.. he is very responsive to her, if she actually asks him for stuff.)
[edit: weeell... ok, there are SOME areas he has been overboard with. but as i recall, he's backing off]

If she approaches her husband about other things she would like from him... she would probably get it.

"having no expectations" is not the same thing as "not asking for anything". Ann, you can *ask* for stuff. Just dont *expect* to get exactly what you ask for. you might, you might not.
I'd say, though, that the odds are pretty high that you will get it, just so long as you are specific in what you ask for.
you got specific in your "touch" example. and he understood and adjusted his behaviour.

ask him for how you'd like him to treat you. (specifically! )

he'll be happy you asked


PS: the "hysterical bonding" thing, isnt common to have it be painful for the other party. Usually, it's a mutually agreed upon thing, and it is for both people.
It was unfortunate that you were not sexually prepared for it when it happened.
Generally speaking "hysterical bonding", is an unusually high amount of sex right after the discovery. it's like "makeup sex" on crack. Commonly, every day, possibly multiple times, for a week or longer.

You might say that LFL had her own share of hysterical bonding with her newly awakened husband recently. (3 times in a day! phew....) I dont think it was him being "turned on by the thought of her with another guy". Ick. Just the opposite.

[ann25]

Hi Dave, I think you are definately right about the attraction thing. I have started standing up for myself a lot more then ever before. My biggest problem is that when i know he's feeling bad, part of me just steps up to sooth and comfort him no matter how he acts rather than keep standing up. I have to really pay attention to my reaction to what he says and how he acts towards me.

At some point, i'm hoping, he'll forgive me. I think when he does that he'll be able to look past the EA and see that (like lots say here) it was a symptom of a really bad R and certainly not the cause of the problems. I love him. I always will, you are right, i do not NEED him, but i don't want to lose him either. I'll just keep plugging away. My friend asked me how long i'd keep going at this without him forgiving me or seeing any thing in himself that needs changing and I don't know right now. Not forever ceratinly, but until it feels hopeless, i'm going to keep trying.

Thanks! ann

[ann25]

ann25, just a thought. Maybe the reason he treats you badly is because he knows he can and you put up with it.

sheeesh. such pessimism from posters on ann's thread.

She's already pointed out a huge proof that the opposite is true; that he just doesnt realize what he's doing.
When she confronted him about the way he was touching her... he finally understood.

I agree and disagree... I think in regards to everything other than sex/affection in our R, this is true. He knows that if something doesn't get done, i'll just do it. No amount of asking him, "please load the dishwasher today" helps. He knows that i don't want to fight, so i won't. He knows that things will still get done and that we'll move on. i let him get away with those things because i don't much have a choice, i can't exactly go on strike with D3 and D1 hanging out.

OTOH, physically/sexually if i tell him specifically that i don't appreciate something, sometimes he gets it sometimes he doesn't. When we talked the other night, i had to get to the point of telling him that i felt used by him and like he didn't even love me when he did that to make him really understand... I feel like i almost have to hurt him to make him understand what i need. I think that is why i have a hard time with it, cause i've done enough hurting already. But he normally does change his ways, at least temproarily...

I know that i have to be extremely specific with him. I think showing him exactly how it feels when he grabs on me (i did it while he was trying to do something) helped alot!

[ann25]

ok... now that i've written a novel... i need a break. Thanks again everyone!!

[fb2]

Ann, If my W did 10% of what you are doing I'd be so grateful! I think you've been giving and giving and giving. As many of us have tried to say in various ways you can only change you so don't try to change H, he'll change himself later. So maybe one change in you could be to set some clear boundaries with H regarding sex and domestic chores; he'll probably care and respect you the more for it. I got the Mars/Venus book on tape from the library and listened to a lot of it and this is one of the major points. There are also ways to deal with H's insecurities by building up your trust and admiration of his positive traits but I'll let you look it up because I don't have it on my finger tips. Try to rekindle what you liked about him in the first place. Enough of my theories ... you are doing well, take care ...

[ann25]

fb2. Hi - I think the same about most of the guys here. If my H would only show a fraction of their effort and compassion... Maybe if i could get him here that would change things? hehe

Clear boundries... yeah. I'm not so good about that am i? I have ideas in my head, but i don't want to spit them out a lot of times. It's hard. I've forgiven H for the way he used to treat me, but I have a hard time completely getting past it. I think it's like i don't think he'll revert back to that, but then there is this little voice that says "he used to be nice and then got bad, what's to say that can't happen again" I think the key to that answer is me. I really have to set those boundries. While it wasn't my fault he treated me that way, it's my fault that i allowed him to. Boundries... Not 100% sure on exactly what they are, but i really do need to figure that out... thanks!

[ann25]

same old thing...

ok weekend. I was sick. I don't think H knows what to do when i'm sick. When he's sick, he sleeps in, rests and I take care of the girls. When i'm sick... not much changes. This weekend my cold completely wiped me out. I wasn't extra helpful, but I did my regular stuff. I was sooo tired. H sleeps late or takes naps, so he is wide awake at like 2 am. Just for the record, last night is the last night i will be staying up with him. I need more sleep than that.

H doesn't know how to let things go. There are big things that take time ( like the EA) and then there are little arguements that M people have, that you just have to get over. I think he just holds on to stuff for too long. Last night we had what should have been a 5 minute conversation. Instead, he goes to the bedroom, pouts, falls asleep, wakes back up angry. Then we continue discussion. I asked him if he still wanted to watch a movie (we had planned on it before his nap). We're watching the movie and he asks what's wrong with me. I told him nothing, i was just trying to watch the movie, what's wrong with you? Well, saying sorry doesn't just fix it. (he said i was being bitchy earlier. I probably was, it was unintentional, so i apologized cause i hadn't meant to come across that way). This is at least 45-60 minuets later (about 2 hours after his nap). It took another 20-30 minutes before he relaxed...

That seems excessive to me. So i'm thinking that however long it takes for someone else to internally deal with EA, it will probably take him 3 times as long... Anyways...

I'm trying to be positive today. I'm still sick, so that's no fun, but what can I do?

Don't really feel like working today... Not too busy here though with the MLK holiday for some. Hope everyone had a lovely weekend!!