Real growing and healing

[frank_D]

I said "I'm fine, I don't have much to say given the situation. It's nice that you're doing these things, I just don't have anything to add".

I'd have stopped at "...given the situation" lest you appear to be onboard with her useless & mindless wandering but if your tone wasn't bitter then yes, that was fine.
She'd just use bitterness to say you aren't "growing", you know.
If I were you, I'd shoot for indifference.
And fake it til you make it.

Yeah, I have a few points of confusion on that whole exchange

Why did she ask me if I was 'ok'? Because I wasn't giving her the 'attention and enthusiasm' about her life that she needed? Did she expect me not to change my interactions with her after being told she was 'done'?

I almost said "you know, I'm fine I just don't care about your life any more, I'm almost relieved that I don't have to wonder if you meant it when you said you'd keep your commitment to help me through my stuff. Now I know the answer and since you're no longer my responsibility I'm so relieved it's over"

Later this evening I was in our room (ha, 'our room') and I walked up behind her and rubbed her shoulder, asking her if she was tight from working today. She says "Oh, have you stopped being mad at me now?" and I said "I wasn't mad, I just didn't have anything to say". She says 'ok' and starts talking about something else, now her tone is 'everything is all normal now'.

Still not sure what to say when she talks about her stuff. How do you detach and when she 'detects' the difference in your responses, how do you tell her that you're not mad, you just don't care about her 'adventures'? I mean, she's LEAVING. Doesn't she remember that small point?

[frank_D]

Had a long talk with Blyndfaith about my childhood, and his kids. Their interactions with their mother are very similar to my interactions with my grandmother. They are lucky. They have him.

Anyway, here is my dilemma of today (besides the interactions with W).

I'm tired of this dynamic with her. Yes, I still look at her and feel the love, but I'm tired of knowing that when she is down I need to bring her back up. When I am down, she can't bring me back up, and ultimately if I stay down long enough and it hurts her to be in it with me she will be 'done' and go on her merry way.

Yes, as Dee and others have said, she doesn't have the tools to 'fix me'. I understand that. I also understand that I didn't reach out but as Blyndfaith now understands from our conversation, I have always lived thinking that nobody else will help me, that I have to solve my problems alone. That needs to change.

So, I look back at the timeline of our life the past 7 years or so and I see a cycle where I'm really beat down emotionally, not dealing with it, and she does these things:

First couple years after the crash when I sell my business and watch other people rip it apart and lose my self esteem, she spends all her time with her girlfriend in the nice new house I bought her, and ignores me when I'm coming home all stressed out hurt and anxious and drinking because it hurts. After enough time passes we have a big (verbal) fight one night, she gets scared I might 'do something' (because I stand in front of the door and won't let her leave because she is hysterical and irrational) and goes to her girlfriends, gets a restraining order and has me evicted from my house, files for divorce, etc...

3 months later after I am living away she calls me at night because she is alone in the house and needs someone to talk to because there are scary noises outside. A couple months after that we're back together, getting some counseling, talking about moving because it's clear that my job and the situation there is killing me.

We move, but I'm still suffering from low self esteem and really hurt, drinking, bad off. Her brother who is a real messed up guy comes and lives with us for 9 months, which puts all kinds of stress into the house. Eventually we have to kick him out. Then one of her girlfriends needs a place to live because of a job situation and we entertain her for 4 months till we have to kick her out too. I'm still not 'ok' and it's wearing her down. She gos to Hawaii and meets 'Mr Soulmate' and decides she needs a divorce, and he's her lost love from a previous life.

In reality, he's worse off than she is, an emotional predator but she's so lost in LA LA land she doesn't see it. Our counselor gives me the tools to bring her back from the brink, heal her pain and despair and get us back together so that we can possibly save our marriage. I DB better than anyone and accomplish that goal. Yay. a hero.

But I spent all I had left in me to do that. After about 6 months or so my business(which I neglected) takes a downturn. I'm still insecure about our relationship so I don't want to ask her to help out. I spiral down into despair so about half my day is 'good' and the evenings are 'despair'. She says she's 'learned her lesson' and that she will stand by me while I go through this. I ask her to help me stop these cycles, she tries as best as she can - but it really isn't anything meaningful. She tells me that she won't give up on me.

But then. She says "I'm having a conflict because I made a commitment to you, but I also made a commitment to myself that I would not stop growing."

She goes to another one of these 'retreats' in early december. What a surprise, she meets a nice man who gives her complements. So she buys him a hat and sends it to him for xmas. I find out about this because he sends her a polite 'thank you' card that I happen to see. I ask her about it (nicely) and she tells me that he was nice to her, complemented her abut her hair or other stuff and made her feel like it was 'ok' to accept complements - something she claims she has trouble doing.

ok

Later she comes back to me to tell me 'nothing happened' because she knew I would be worried. I had already checked phone and e-mail records and there was no evidence of her pursuing him. Plus his 'thank you' card was very benign. Like he was surprised she sent him a gift.

She goes away to Italy for a week with D17, has a stressful time there. Comes home, falls apart and needs me to hold her, to support her.

The next day she tells me she "can't do this any more, she is done". But also says our relationship is not over, but she isn't sure what she wants.

Next day, we go to bed and she says she wants to have s-x but it doesn't change where she's at, she just needs it with me. I ask her what she's feeling and she asks me if it's 'wrong' for her to feel like she has made a 'connection' with men she meets at various 'touchy feely' events. She says maybe she was a prostitute in another life, or maybe she should be a Gypsy, not being with anyone in particular but getting to know many people.

I tell her that when she meets men in these settings and feels like they are honest / nice / complementary that she will feel 'flattered' as long as she feels like her relationship at home is stable, and 'attracted to them' if she feels like she isn't getting her needs met. Then we ML and it's very nice, very connecting. But she still seems off.

The next day she reaches out to me a little more. She tells me I need to let her 'take care of me' more because that's how she shows her love.

The rest of the week she stays on again / off again. Occasional hugs, sometimes a kiss.

Sunday, she's angry in the morning after having 'weird dreams' she can't tell me about. Says something sarcastic about 'growth' when I mention the talk at church.

after church, she tells me she hopes I can 'keep the house' so the kids can finish school here since 'one of us' should stay here. Tells me she's 'done'. still loves me but is 'done'. Doesn't want to be a 'wife' any more. Angry, hurt, want's me to 'get it'. We're done.

Has no plan to leave because she has 'nobody, except her connection to God, and no money'. We'll stay together and sleep in the same bed, keep up a positive appearance so the kids can finish the semester before we 'tell them its over'. By summer she will have figured out how she's going to support herself and how she's going to get a divorce.

Of course to be fair, I need to be sure to add that she has been through a lot of anguish and stress with me.

--

So, I keep looking at this and I keep asking myself: Why? Why do I still care. Wouldn't it be a relief to just let her go, lick my wounds and move on? I need to fix myself anyway so why not do that and remove that burden from my back. Carrying myself is hard enough these days - and is something I haven't been doing very well at all. Wouldn't it just be a relief that she is gone? Maybe she's right when she says "we'll never be able to be healthy together". Of course not, because I've been needing to heal, but I keep finding myself forced to heal her over and over again.

The more I think about it, the more I keep seeing how much better it might feel to no longer have to deal with her any more. She's not a healthy life partner at all.

If it wasn't for the feelings of love, and the kids, it would be pretty easy at this point to say "screw this, it isn't worth it".

If I could get her to stop playing the 'Oh are you mad at me' head games I could detach and become indifferent.

I mean, maybe this is actually a blessing in disguise. I've been a mess and she 'keeps' me there because of the dynamic. I'm very confused.

And I really, really do not understand her. I don't know how someone can do what she has done. I know I failed her by failing myself. But 2 years ago she said "I know that running away from my marriage (the affair) was wrong, and I understand what a commitment means."

No, she doesn't. She probably never will.

[saffie]

Frank,

You are a wounded animal lashing out in all directions and turning everywhere for answers. Somtimes there just are no answers.

I think your conversation with Dee was great and concurred with what everyone else here is SCREAMING at you. FORGET your bl@@dy W - she is messing with your head big time. She is scared and running. She comes and asks you if you are OK out of guilt and hopes that she will get a positive response from you so as to make herself feel better. Everyone thinks she is spouting a crock of sh!t apart from her 'New Age' friends who have the same run away from anything difficult mentality. Dee gave you sound advice.

Please stop posting about that stupid W you are married to and tell us how you are going to 'fix' Frank. Your W is a hindrance NOT a help and however much you wish it were otherwise you cannot make it so.

Don't get angry at her questions, they are asked for her benefit not yours - she wants answers that assauge her guilt - she is a fool.

You know from things that have been said to you by others on here that you have to work on you. I had to work on me. By reaching rock bottom and then finding a way up a by product was I saved my M - but it was a by product. The main aim was to save myself. I had a father who was incredibly intelligent but a vile drunk. I was never physically harned but verbally I was belittled on a daily basis until I felt little self worth. It's taken the best part of 40 years to recognise that and then find the appropriate help. I still functioned and held down a good job pre children but it stopped me being a rounded 'whole' individual. I still struggle with it daily but I can now deal with it more often than not. My response when I felt vulnerable was to be angry but it wasn't the correct response at all and drove those I love away even further.

Frank, help yourself, THEN look at the bigger picture. STOP focusing on your W. She just happens to be someone who inhabits the same surroundings as you at the moment. She is not your support.

Dee spoke a lot of sense - unlike your W

[AmyC]

Yeah, I have a few points of confusion on that whole exchange

Why did she ask me if I was 'ok'? Because I wasn't giving her the 'attention and enthusiasm' about her life that she needed?

She expects you to be her cheerleader, Frank.
When you didn't cheer, she wondered if you are "okay" or "mad" at her. She reminds me of a child that knows better than to act up, does it anyway, then has the gall to ask if Dad is mad at her. The thing that makes this unacceptable is YOUR WIFE IS A GROWN WOMAN. She knows damn well she's manipulating you. She just chooses not to stop. Frank, you're a sucker. The reason you are continuing to be "confused" by those exchanges is because you so want them to be sincere - as if she really cared if you are hurt, angry...whatever. She doesn't care how you feel. She only cares that you will enable her to feel in the manner she chooses to feel, which in short is relieved of responsibility and excused for her childishness and unwillingness to grow up and think of anyone other than herself.

You are still searching HER.
Screw HER.

Search for Frank.
He existed before she came along and he will exist if she chooses to leave. In addition to that, he is the only one you HAVE to live with for the rest of your life.

Take care of Frank AND STOP FOCUSING ON HER.

She is a LIABILITY.

[faithisbelieving]

Dear Frank

More than 20 months ago, my life changed in a way that I would never have believed. The woman I walked down the aisle with suddenly appeared to me as someone I didn't know. My life fell to pieces and I began to live in a hellish place. Then, the woman I loved, did something I NEVER thought she would ever do...she crossed our marital boundaries...she threw away her vows...she broke her promise to me. I choked Frank. I couldn't breathe. The pain was unbearable.

And that's when you appeared Frank. You rescued me. Two footsteps in the sand. You carried me. If you weren't there Frank, along with Jeff and DonH et all....I would have just disappeared into a world of hurt.

But you kept me going.

You made me believe.

Well, Frank, I'm not going to abandon you now nor am I going to let you make the same mistakes that I made. Sadly, and as per our many talks, I've had to review the last 20 months of my blog here to cull out 30 incidences of cruel and inhuman treatment and ya know what Frank? I was a wussie. On the night that my wife allowed a 30 year old man walk her into the backseat of a car...I saw 'baby steps'...I posted 'what a great 24 hours we had'. Yeah..someone had a great time and it wasn't me. You passed through a similar episode in your sitch Frank. It hurt. It hurt us both. Decisions. They made decisions.

So Frank, it is now time for me to post to you....to finally do what YOU and JEFF did to me. It's time to shake you and throw cold water in your face. Frank....this is not all your fault. Stop blaming yourself. Lift yourself up. Do I have to repeat myself and others:

• Your W didn't have the right to stray outside your marriage WHATEVER was happening in it
• During your darkest times, your W could have approached you in ways OTHER than infidelity and, now, with departure. She could have taken a 'tough love' approach: "hey Frank...get your ass into XYZ place"....or.."I'm leaving for 30 days and when I get back..you'd better have it together"....etc

Stop the blame game Frank and get back to the book. Get back to work on the man who was the 'internet mogul'...get back to focusing on yourself. You've helped us now and we love you for that Frank. Now 'heal thyself'. It's a lot of hard work. We've been there....we STILL are there. We know the pain. We have it still. But...you can do this Frank.

This DB crap is good in the beginning. It stops the hemorrhage. It helps us to see our bad faults. It gives us the tools to try and save our M's. But, you and I are beyond DB 101 Frank. This is the big time now. Throughout this, you've directed me to Deida, Jeff directed me to D'Angelo...and let's not forget Cunningham Frank. Marriage is about love and support and more importantly respect. You deserve this...I deserve this..WE ALL DESERVE THIS.

When was the last time you came home and heard that your W say that she was glad to hear the car pull up into the driveway and hear the door open, knowing that you were home? When Frank?

When?

When did she sit down and ask you to describe why it was so hard to get through some of this, take your hand and sit back and listen?

When did she say that she was thinking of you during the day and missed you?

When did she simply sit down next to you on the couch, stroke your hair and say 'I love you....even tho' times have been tough?'

What's a marriage Frank? How hard should it be? How much pain should we go through? How long do you try to fix something that, perhaps, shouldn't be fixed or is so rusted and leaky that it really should be replaced?

We all throw the word detachment around Frank but you and I now know that it is much more complicated than simply saying it. In view of your history and what's going on, IMO, it is time to go back to detaching but in the way that Gray describes. You have to let go of YOUR attachment to YOUR W'S LOVE....the feeling that you will not survive without XXX's love...that no one but XXX's LOVE will fulfill you.....that without XXX's love there will be no more for you.

BULLShIl.

It's time to stop Frank, as my DB coach Chuck told me once. It's time to stop focusing on your M. It's time to begin letting of of XXX and REFOCUSING ON YOU. It's time to stop the blame game...time to forgive....and time to move forward..and..if you have anger Frank, it's time to let it out in the most constructive way you can without hitting below the belt. In the most ridiculous DB phraseology, there is no way that your W will come back as this SITCH IS...unless you go back to your detachment phase that you achieved a long time ago. I truly believe now that the hope for reconciliation that is promulgated here is a form of denial...a bandaid of hope that keeps us stuck in, well, what you told me Frank...codependence.

Stop blaming yourself Frank. She is buying hats for other men. She is abandoning you. This is not an M right now. Others in piecing are struggling. This is not all your fault.

Break the cycle.

Release your wife and move forward. Sometimes, when you quit and go on, they come back, but, as Jeff said like in Star Trek, if you believe the bullets are real, they will kill you.

We love your Frank. You've helped so many of us.
Go back to you.

I can do this.

Make it so.

Your friend,
Frank (eastern)

[theoden]

Frank,

It sounds to me like you still need to vent your feelings of surprise and outrage at your wife's narcissism. This is like a sucker-punch in the gut. The wind's been knocked out of you.

You've heard it about 100X on this post: take care of yourself and don't focus so much on what your wife is doing.

Well, that's easy to say. Very hard to do. People of conscience and character are not machines and do not detach easily from the people they love.

It seems that the "spiritual" self-absorbed, MLC folks with no moral compass are the ones who have no problems detaching.

Unfortunately, you still live with her hot/cold interactions which are heavy-laden with mixed messages. These words and actions of hers still hurt you. Your capacity to absorb the pain is exhausted.

So, if you can manage to detach and live for Frank, then ignore the rest of what I write below

I only got one small perspective in reading your last post. It's a perspective that takes in consideration you can't really stop living with her for now.

For a moment, remember that oft-quoted DB line, "Believe none of what they say and only half of what they do."

NONE of that they SAY.

HALF of that they DO.

It appears in your situation if you could turn yor wife's wolume button off, things would be much easier. She says she's through, she says she needs to grow, she says wants to be free. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

She said these things before. What did she do then? Nothing.

She says these things now. What is she doing now? Wanting your affection, pulling back a little. Hot and cold behavior. That's it. What can she do? Where can she go? Even if she really intends to leave you, this is going to take 6-9 months, at the very least. In reality, she probably is going to need to wait a long time for her massage business to get underway.

The next round of complaints are going to be about her economic status and how she allowed herself to become financially dependent on you. Whining, complaining, sad about her life, etc, etc.

Amy is right. Paying attention to her craziness is not helpful. It's like listening to a petulant teenager and trying to take their rants seriously.

SMILE and WAVE. Turn the volume button off for while. Take care of you. She's not going anywhere soon.

If you feel like being intimate, do so. If you don't, don't. Stop worrying how your interactions are affecting the relationship. Don't try and save the realationship.

The only thing I can suggest is don't try to convince her to stay in the relationship. That's it. Other than that, do and say what you wish. There's a freedom in that.

--Theoden

[faithisbelieving]

oooh....and frank...just a reminder from MY THREAD:

My W and I had a 2 week period of intimacy then suddenly one day she was back to 'ice queen' and stayed there for about a month. It really threw me and I had to pick myself back up as she actually started the divorce process - because she 'knew' that was the way it 'had to be'.

It was then that I pretty much decided that I COULD live without her and that if she wasn't going to choose to be with me then she was losing a lot in the process.

I grew a lot of confidence then and I pretty much told her to move out and get on with HER life so I could get on with MY life.

I'm not saying you should tell her to move out, what I am saying is that you should simply stop 'trying'. Not 'stop caring' but stop always being there all the time. You try too hard and you also probably keep your distance when you shouldn't. You have to be ok in your own skin around her no matter what she's feeling. She clues into the fact that you get scared and feel unsafe when she is like this.

[frank_D]

Thanks everyone for your support. Please keep it coming.

If anyone gets this post in the next hour, I need feedback on one thing.

You recall the interaction from yesterday with her. This morning she is giving her first ever 'talk' in front of a group of strangers about 'breathing into stress' at a local Rotary club. She's been very nervous and a little freaked about it.

She'll come home in about an hour and want to tell me how it went, hopefully well, and I'll need to 'react' in some way.

What do I do? Neutral? Don't care? Be supportive? Cheerleader? What?

I'm only asking because I'm trying to set the tone from this point forward and this is a place to start.

thanks.

[AmyC]

Try neutral but indifferent.

You're not going to be best friends.

[theoden]

Frank,

What do you want to do?

Are you excited for her? Yes or no?

Don't pretend to be excited if you are not. Don't pretend to be aloof if you are excited.

Trying to set up a strategy or set a tone sounds like attempt to get her to do something or get some outcome. It's thinking through your reaction to her because you want to acheive a goal. This takes too much energy in my opinion. You are not TRYING to do anything to her. All you are doing is taking care of yourself.

What response from you is the most honest, and will bring you the most peace and joy?

--Theoden