Starting to get it.... my 3rd thread

[blindsided1]

Didn't fb2 say it earlier about asking for what you want. I'm sure that you have tried that, but next time he asks if you're happy yet, explain that you are getting there, but such and such would help you move further along - ask for what you want if he isn't doing it. He may also be stubborn and think that maybe he doesn't have to put any effort in because he "blames" you still. I could be way off base and maybe you've already covered this, but just my 2 cents

[Dom R]

it's just frustrating to hear him keep saying that he wants to work on it and am i happy yet, when i can't actually see anything from him.

hard for him to "work on it", when he doesnt know what to work on, right?

you can help your own frustration, by helping him.

This is me, "helping you to help him to help you"

(most parents with young kids may note an oblique movie reference in that )

[ann25]

We are still playing a version of the blame game. I ask for things, even little things and they don't get done. He's always got an excuse and some how all of our "his excuse for not helping" conversations end up circling back to OM and how it's hard for him (because of EA) to do things for me and i'm trying not to let our conversations go there. I think the less time he spends actually thinking about it the better, so if i can keep it from coming up, i do.

Really, the one thing i want him to do right now is make some visible step that he wants to fix this M. Anything, help me around the house regularly (even if it's just something little), help with the girls, be willing to even think about the possiblity that there were problems before the EA... I don't know. I know that he has done a few little things (cleaned a room here and there or taking out the trash). I guess i just don't get very encouraged by them because then we are right back where we were. He's still over critical and negative and doesn't help. And I'm still cautious when talking to him about it(now because of EA rather than insecurity, but same dif)

He did actually ask me if i'm alright the other day though because he said that i was so much more mellow than i had been in a while and it was good to see me like that. But then he started thinking it was because i finally decided to leave him... i reassured him. Before all this drama, i was probably one of the most laid back people you'd meet and I'm trying to act as if like that now, til i get that back. I'm trying to do lots of things, i just don't see any of them working. I guess it's better than when he was angry all the time, so at least they are not not working... hehe

[ann25]

thanks Dom. How do you suggest i help him? Seriously, spell it out cause i think i'm a little dense.

I know you told me that when i ask him for help, to keep it more on little things that he can do and not counseling/reading/etc...

i've asked him if he can do little things, for instance:

if i make sure that the laundry is caught up and the basket in the bathroom is empty, would you be able to put your things in the basket when you get ready? That would help me to keep the room cleaned up.

would you be able to unload the dishes and put them away for me at some point during your day, so I can just load up the dishwasher after dinner. That would give us a little more time in the evenings.

I honestly give up on asking. I am seriously not asking for much. I can't ask him to trust me. I can't ask him to just work on the R. I can't ask him to be nicer (he doesn't get that). I can't ask him to be less critical of me and more appreciative.

I'm probably just not seeing it. I've tried being super nice. I've tried to stand up to him. Now i'm somewhere in the middle. I'm obviously doing something wrong cause nothing is happening, but i think my brain is all clouded up with worries....just the other day i was being all positive and now i'm sitting here worrying... i don't like all this emotional rollercoaster crap.

[Dom R]

[ ... How do you suggest i help him? ... ]

i've asked him if he can do little things, for instance:

if i make sure that the laundry is caught up and the basket in the bathroom is empty, would you be able to put your things in the basket when you get ready? That would help me to keep the room cleaned up.

would you be able to unload the dishes and put them away for me at some point during your day, so I can just load up the dishwasher after dinner. That would give us a little more time in the evenings.

I think those are great!

What you might do, instead of asking him to be permently aware of those things, is to work out a schedule of when he needs to do those things.

seems to me, this is a basic difference between men and women. Women have the "notice things around the house 24/7" ability. Men usually dont.

I read recently, that this could actually be related to basic deep developmental brain diferences.
Men's brains are fundamentally made to have a very narrow focus (and dont multi-task well). Whereas women are funandentally made to keep looking at the "bigger picture".

Give him a specific focus(ie: a specific schedule), and he'll do much better.

(you might like the book, "men are like waffles, women are like spaghetti" or something like that)


I can't ask him to just work on the R.
why not? and what do you mean, by "just work on the R" ?
maybe you just need to be more specific with him.
(like.. really specific)

I can't ask him to be nicer (he doesn't get that).
okay, lets be more accurate: sounds more like, "you asked him to be nicer. He didnt understand what you meant".
yes?
not at all the same thing as "you cant ask him".

If so, then its a translation problem. The problem is that you arent spelling out HOW to be nicer to you.


I can't ask him to be less critical of me and more appreciative.
I dont see why not.

getting your marriage to a point where you are happy with it, is going to take a lot of work.
from you.

I'm going to make a management comparison. sorry, but its the best i have right now, even though I myself am a bad manager but at least I know the practical theory of it.

You are the relationship "manager". it's in your court to manage it.
It's your responsability to make sure that both of you understand
and do the things you both need to do.

With a "manager/employee" dynamic, it is the manager's responsability that the employee
1. knows what his job is
2. knows HOW to do his job
3. helps him stay motivated to do his job.

If an otherwise willing employee doesnt understand what his job is or how to do it.. it's considered the fault of the manager, not the employee.


You have a similar responsability.
You need to let your husband know,
1. what he needs to do in your relationship
2. HOW he needs to do it
3. Help him stay motivated.
(you CAN also ask him to help you be motivated, although you need to do it indirectly. Figure out what things help you stay motivated, then ask him to do those things for you, as "working on the relationship" tasks)

Related to what I'm saying, about it being your responsability to make sure he "stays on track in his job":

You've already said that he doesnt understand what "being nicer" means. That means you need to train him.
Kinda like training a puppy

When he isnt being nice... you stop him, right then and there, and tell him, "you're not being nice right now, please stop it".
When he IS being nice... you praise him! right then and there.
that's the way he will really "get it".

(see why I used the puppy analogy? )


If you put in the daily (hourly, minute-by-minute) effort to help him in this way... then since he cares about helping you feel better.. you should eventually see long term results sticking.
It's a pain in the rear to train a puppy. But the long-term benefits, outweigh the shorter-term troubles, do they not?


He does seem to have an additional problem about responsability avoidance, through the OM tactic.
You shouldnt allow that to continue.
It is manipulation of you.
At some point, you probably should address that issue, and put it to rest once and for all.

That is to say, perhaps something along the lines of,

"I dont expect you to forget about the OM. I dont expect you to not feel hurt about the OM.
I do expect you to make up your mind once and for all, about whether we are going to work on this marriage together.

I have given up on OM, permenantly, and have chosen to work on our marriage, and our relationship, with all my efforts.
I would like you to do the same.
We need to both be committed to actively working on our marriage, and making it better for us.

Using 'you were involved with OM' in the past, as an excuse to not work on our marriage, is not right.

I need you to commit to working on our marriage alongside me, with no more excuses like that any more.
I need you to stop holding that over my head, and show me that you want a happy marriage together, by keeping the past in the past as much as possible, and instead, working on a happy future together.


Will you do that?

[ann25]

Hi dom... thanks. this turned out long, i kinda got into rambling.. oops. anyways. i really appreciate the ideas.

I don't know... i put my puppy in the kitchen, put newpaper by the doggie door and told her to go outside. LOL... j/k i get the reference.

A schedule would be good and maybe just ask him to do those things a couple times a week or something at first. I really hate the idea of treating him like a child or puppy or employee, but i understand the concept. No one has ever made him do anything before and now he's pretty comfy where he's at.

He's very good about the details and I tend to look at the big picture. I am a procrastinator by nature so when i clean, take care of bills, or anything else that i don't want to do, i have a set way that makes me just do it. I have to do lists and charts and stuff gets done. I look at the house and so long as it is all picked up, it's good. H looks at one thing for instance, the kitchen counter, and sees one thing on it and is complaining about it. I just keep thinking, it's not a mess, it needs a place to sit. he can't some up with one, so there it sits. Or i relocate it and we start all over again.

I remember one time, i got him to help me fold the laundry, he folded 3 of his tshirts and i had the rest of the pile done. Everything had to be perfect, every fold. I just don't get that. it's another reason i have always done everything, stuff takes him forever because it has to be juuuust perfect. I just get it done well, i'm not perfect, i never will be.

I can't ask him to just work on the R.
why not? and what do you mean, by "just work on the R" ?
maybe you just need to be more specific with him.
(like.. really specific)

That's what i mean, i can't ask him just "Can you work on R like you said you would" i have to be more specific. I guess for me, when it comes spefically to the R, he needs to work on himself. His insecurities (he's always had them) and his ability to deal with stress and anger. I'm trying to work on me and my issues, but won't even face his.

I can't ask him to be nicer (he doesn't get that).
okay, lets be more accurate: sounds more like, "you asked him to be nicer. He didnt understand what you meant".
yes?
not at all the same thing as "you cant ask him".

If so, then its a translation problem. The problem is that you arent spelling out HOW to be nicer to you.

Yeah, so when i'm typing and upset, it doesn't come across very well, thank you for translating. When i ask him not to talk to me like I'm a child or to not insult me for doing things my way, he gets upset and can't see how he's ever done that. I'll try your approach of telling him right in the instant. I think that will help alot.

I can't ask him to be less critical of me and more appreciative.
I dont see why not.

getting your marriage to a point where you are happy with it, is going to take a lot of work.
from you.

When i say i can't (for all these things), it's not that i physically can't, it's that i can't without it starting some sort of fight or drama and most of those end up about EA and OM or that it doesn't do any good and i can't keep asking for my own sake.

It's like when he can see that i'm physically in the act of cleaning and asks me why i'm not doing a certain thing or that something is is not done well enough. I need to say 'see, you are being over critical right now, can you please speak to me differently', but instead i feel like saying "fine, do it yourself if i can't do it good enough for you." i guess it's in the way he's saying it and that's what i can't get across to him. the words themselves aren't that bad, it's the tone and the body language when he says them that hurts.

it's funny, his friend that he used to work construction with always used to call him the supervisor, cause he was really good at telling people what to do, but not so good at doing it himself. I guess that's how i feel now. he's the supervisor and he decides to do and gets mad when i don't do it his way. I end up feeling like i just can't do anything good enough. I hate that and that is what gets to me, that's how i felt before.

[ann25]

i posted while you added that last bit, i think.... i really like that. Thank you. i will definatley try that next time OM comes up. Now i just have to let a conversation get to that point instead of blocking it... thank you!!

[fb2]

Ann, Try something different and solution oriented and see what happens:
(1) Try the exercise on the marriage builders website for domestic chores; what have you got to loose?
(2) Do not ever criticize or nag him; instead truly appreciate every little thing he does that pleases you (just for 1 day to start with; it won't kill you)
(3) Ask for what you want with "I-messages" not "You-messages" and see if this makes a difference; try it just for 1 day and choose a good time to ask. ("I prefer ...", "I feel hurt when ...", etc. instead of "You should ...", "You are critical ...")

[Atlas]

Ann,

Just wanted to let you know I'm here. Dom's suggestions are so right on, my W did a ton of those vague questions and I didn't know how to translate them. They might have well been in chinese. I was seriously lost, I would spend so much silent time in the car, going what does that mean. Probably should have asked W that instead. Haha!

It's just like he said, train the puppy. The thing I think of is changing a tire. There are steps, you have to get the tools out, get the other tire out, loosen the bolts a little, jack the car up, take the tire off, put the other on...etc.

But seriously, if someone never showed me that step by step, I would never have learned it. Just remember he is there, its just too bad his ego is in the trash. He needs to start to pick it up.

[blindsided1]

Hi Ann, I think what Dom wrote about H and OW issue is great. Beind one that has dealt with OP, that would totally work for me if he said it in that way. The only thing, in my opinion, that I would change is the line

"Using 'you were involved with OM' in the past, as an excuse to not work on our marriage, is not right."

to "Using 'you were involved with OM' in the past, as an excuse to not working on our marriage, is not productive."

That alleviates any judgement statements. But, it's just my opinion. I know I would rather hear that than be told what I was doing wasn't "right".

Good luck - would love to know how it turns out.