formless utterings...

[Dom R]

meh... I think I ruined an otherwise pleasant evening, by being stupid.
nothing earthshattering, i guess.

mini-trip tomorrow. gonna be AFK for 2-3 days with my family on a ski trip.
hopefully, the cold, will freeze the stupid out of me.

[LooseThread]

Hey don't worry...I be stupid ALL the time!!!

Pick yourself up, dust yourself off. Apologise if required and stride on!

[Dom R]

mini-trip tomorrow. gonna be AFK for 2-3 days with my family on a ski trip.
hopefully, the cold, will freeze the stupid out of me.

well, apparently not

Anyways; here's an update, for those curious folks who are "following along at home"...


The trip wasnt some perfect thing. No earth-shattering "yes, i've changed my mind!" moments
(not that i expected there to be)
And there were a few dark spots.

Yet, at the same time, there were some nice positives to be appreciated.

As usual, our children enjoyed playing around with both their parents at the same time.
Plus, since our kids were in half-day ski lessons, i got to give her something directly for her own enjoyment, rather than "with the kids": She got to play around on skiis for a bit, which she hasnt done since she was a kid.

I unfortunately put a rather large damper on it, by crashing into her on the first trip down the slopes
But she said that overall, she enjoyed it.

We also got "rained out", and there was a leak in our cabin, so we came back a day early. sigh. but one GOOD thing, was that she agreed to go on another trip relatively soon, to make up for it. That's really nice.

and, there were some other pleasant points of the trip which I'll keep to myself

The ONE maybe-long-term positive for our marriage that came out of all of it, was the fallout of a semi-brief "R talk" that I initiated with a question about her feelings in a specific area.

Among many other things, she brought up one of her biggest complaints about me: that I "always want my way, and always try to control her".
When she gave me a chance to talk, I responded that I thought it was natural for anyone to "want their way", and that what seemed to me to be "controlling", was whether they try to force getting their way or not.
I mentioned that I thought i was doing fairly well in not "forcing" things these days; also, that she has sometimes resorted to "controlling" type actions herself.

She seemed to really absorb what I was saying this time, and actually told me that i had made some good points about control. Also, she said that while I tend to revert "under pressure", generally, I was doing ok in that area. She even agreed that she did it too sometimes.


It was really nice to hear her recognize some of how I treat her now, rather than for her to just complain about how I used to treat her.

So, overall, a good trip I think, even if the weather wasnt so good and I am now looking forward to our next mini-trip

[Dom R]

Hmmm...
my wife had a tough first day back at school today (She's a teacher).
When I popped online to say hi, she told me that a student from her school, was murdered last night.

I offered a "friendly ear", but she really didnt seem to want to talk about it.

it seems like she has always been guarded about these kinds of things. Where other women may want to talk about tough things like that.... I think she's always been reluctant to do that. I think she doesnt like to "show vulnerability".

Wish I could be there for her today.

[Dom R]

hmm.. my posting to karen and sandi about how they need to "yell and scream at their husbands to tell them how miserable they are feeling", makes me take a little pause to reflect on my own marital issues.

there are some similarities, i think. I didnt realize how important somethings were to my wife in the distant past, because she didnt get to the "yell and scream" stage. If I realized how important it was to her, i would have changed my ways sooner.
That's why I'm recommending that to karen and sandi.
(very very rarely, she used to. and that DID get my attention and get me to adjust)


In the more recent past of our living together, however (last 2 years?)... she did occasionally get worked up, but didnt get what she wanted... So I guess she would think that "yelling and screaming" isnt effective on getting my attention.

Thing is though.. it was no longer about "make me happy: make our marriage better".
It was variants of, "make me happy: Stop getting in the way of me spending all my time with OM!!!"


If she was ranting and complaing about "lets do more things together", or something that actually helped our marriage, rather than separate us further... she probably would have been amazed at how responsive I would have been.
Instead, i was the one saying "lets go out more.. lets do more things together" and getting rejected.

sigh...

[DaveJ]

Dom, screaming and yelling isn't exactly effective unless one can clearly communicate what they are trying to convey. Something clear and direct would be much more effective than screaming actually. For years my W has picked fights and screamed and yelled at me. All it did was completely shut me down and made me avoid her and no longer listen to her. Sometimes it is much more effective if she would've said, "I am unhappy, and this is why, and if you can do this, this, and this then I would be happier." It's straight forward and simple. And it would be very clear to me that I love her and this is what I must do. Instead, she constantly complained about she isn't happy but leave me to guess why. I ask her what I can do to make her happy. All I got was: "I don't know", "You should know already", "if you really love me and care about me you don't have to ask". Not knowing what to do and frustrated, it just made me more closed off. So for all the ladies out there, if you want something then spit it out. If you beat around the bush, you won't ever get what you want. We men want simple and direct answers and you won't hurt our feelings by telling us what you want, in fact, we will thank you!

[Dom R]

Dom, screaming and yelling isn't exactly effective unless one can clearly communicate what they are trying to convey. Something clear and direct would be much more effective than screaming actually. For years my W has picked fights and screamed and yelled at me. All it did was completely shut me down and made me avoid her and no longer listen to her.

Dave, that is you. Other men, are different.
(and I suspect that in certain situations, you wouldnt be so different either ;-)

both sandi and karen have already tried to communicate, clearly, and calmly. their husbands know what their wives want. (well, karen's does. sandi's, might use a little more help). They just dont think it's important enough for them to do anything about it.

Screaming and yelling about it, is about the only remaining way they have left, besides filing for divorce or moving out, that shows their husbands just how important this is to them.

When a person tells their spouse, "I want this", and the 'this' is going to involve significant effort/difficulty for the spouse to give to them... deciding what to do, becomes a tradeoff, on comparing how much overall hurt (collectively) there will be in doing nothing, vs doing what they want.

If a woman says to her husband, "i'd like that $10,000 piece of jewelry", but to get it, her husband would have to work 70 hours a week for 6 months... then the collective hurt analysis looks like the following:
Doing nothing == "wife doesnt get a fancy piece of jewelry"
Doing what she asked == 6 months of horrible stress and burden on the husband, just for one piece of jewelry.

So, odds are, he's not gonna do it. The husband makes a judgement call, "Well, ok, she told me that she 'wants it'. but she'll be ok if she doesnt get it. so I'm not going to put myself through that kind of h### for something she doesnt really need".


A similar kind of analysis goes on, for the wife asking for more sex, or the assorted things that Sandi would like from her husband. Inside, their husbands go through a silent cost/benefit analysis, and decide that "well, she doesnt 'REALLY' need it".
Both of their husbands actually care about them. They just dont think that it's important enough for them to go through that amount of effort, for something they think their wives can do without.

All the calm person-to-person talking in the world, probably wont change their minds. (with the exception of a calm biblical discussion in karen's case. which then becomes a 3-person argument: Karen, H, and God )

If, on the other hand, karen or sandi started yelling and screaming... that would be a total 180.. that would get their H's attention all by itself.. plus, it communicates by its very nature, "THIS IS REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME! YOU CANT JUST IGNORE THIS!"

Your wife screams all the time. So it has no effect on you any more. However, sandi and karen never do that. So it would have a very dramatic effect on their H's.

[ann25]

Hi Dom... I found you.

Sounds like your trip went well.

Obviously, i don't know all about what you've got going on, but it seems that you are really getting what your W needs/needed. That's so good.

Don't really have much to say, just thanks for all the advice and that you could probably use some of your own. It's amazing that in our own sitch we aren't sure what to do, but it's so much clearer in other peoples. no emotional attachment i guess...

anyways.

take care ann

[Dom R]

Hi Dom... I found you.

Sounds like your trip went well.

Obviously, i don't know all about what you've got going on, but it seems that you are really getting what your W needs/needed.

Eh.. not so much, apparently.
We ended up having an 'R' talk yesterday, as a side effect of a discussion of her blaming me, about how our kids want our family together again.
(she thinks it's my fault that our kids have been telling her they want us together again. It couldnt possibly be because THEY want us back together again? She claims that they only tell her that when they are with me, not when they are with her. very wierd, if true.)

She went right back to the "[we cant live together ever again because] You always try to control me!!" complaint. Not a week after she had told me that I dont really do that any more.

She ended the conversation with "I'll think about it".
(About how she's teaching our children by her example, to never forgive.)

Based on her past response after similar statements to end discussions, that seems unlikely, though

-----

I think that what I have been trying to do and show her over the separation period, would meet most peoples's criteria as a candidate for forgiveness.

To use the "five languages of apology" as a guideline, for example:

• i HAVE said "i was sorry" for those things I did wrong
• i HAVE said that I was wrong to try to control her, and assorted other things
• Hmm.. not sure i've asked "what can I do to make it right?", at least for a very long time. But I think its pretty clear to her I would do anything, if she actually asked me to.
• I have told her I would try not to repeat those things, and I think i've also showed that by my actions
• I have asked for forgiveness. Although only maybe once or twice, over the last 18 months. ick.

Anyways....Thank you for your words of encouragement


Maybe I'll try asking her again if she would forgive me.
It's tough to find a good time to do that, though. I've probably blown my quota of "R talk" for the next 3 months

Wish she'd actually come back to me as a follow-through on her "I'll think about it" statement.
Then I could ask her, without pissing her off by bringing up R talk myself.

[catfan]

Dom have you thought that she hasn't yet apologized to herself nor forgiven herself? Some people really struggle with those two things and continue to blame others for the ills.

Yes you've apologized using all 5 apology languages but until she is willing to accept an apology all you are doing is trying to push her to something YOU want. I do understand where you are coming from by taking responsibility for your actions and trying to correct them. Where you and I probably are both stumbling is our efforts to get recognition of our acceptance of the responsibility, our repentance and our changes or efforts to change. Bottom line here is when we do those things all we are doing is pursuing which is pushing and pushing our wives away.

(Yes I know, I need to go drink my own kool aid.)