The Great Wall Part II

[sat567]

Dang...I was going to go back and edit my post, then claim bewilderment about this whole issue. Who d!cked with the "edit" button timeout, anyway?

I stand corrected.

(How integrated of me to admit fault.)

Or should the period go outside the parenthesis?

One note: Just keep your fingers off my colon.

Hairdog

[Lillieperl]

it's just a bloody stupid rule

Don't matter.

If you want to appear educated among the writing people of the world, ya gotta follow the dumb rules. Since I support myself as a writer, the rules work for me.

[Dom R]

Dom,

I think religious stuff is so equated with shame (Bad boy, God will be mad) that unless there is a context it will tank so badly that the whole bb will hear it.

Karen

Amoung catholics, that is fairly common.

However, your husband is not a common catholic.
The level of involvement you have described him having, is not indicative of that mindset with God. Rather the opposite. Plus, his general care and consideration towards you, are in some ways counter-indications.

Two major comments/questions for you:

1. how, *specifically*, do you think he might react? eg: specific sentances you think might come out of his mouth in response? You've mentioned "the shame/denial/hiding" thing, but I dont personally have a good feel on what that looks like from him

2. Shame, by itself, is not neccessarily a bad thing. Just like Guilt. If he feels shame, or guilt initially... but that subsequently prods him to change his behaviour.. that's a Good Thing.
That's really how healthy shame and guilt is supposed to work.
What is unhealthy, is when people feel shame and guilt about doing/not doing something... but then just keep doing what they are doing.

shame and guilt are only really "bad", when they are about things the person cannot possibly change.

This is something that your husband can change. He may not be able to spontaneously get an erection or whatever on demand.. but he has the choice and power over himself, to chose to give you sexual satisfaction regularly.

This is a fair target to aim for. And this is what the bible passages address, reguarding "marital relations". Choosing to give your spouse whatever you are able in that area; to not withhold what you can give of yourself.

He is withholding. He SHOULD feel guilty. He SHOULD feel shame, that he has let his wife down.
The issue for you may be to lead him through the shame and guilt, into corrective action.

Dont try to avoid it. Work through it, and come out the other side.




-------

A side question: How involved with the bible are you yourself?
Have you basically distanced yourself from it, and God, since your prior divorce? Would that be why you are reluctant to approach him?
I think you did mention something like that before... But.. biblically speaking, you should let go your own guilt in that area.
"Go and sin no more".
Let go of the past... If you have asked for forgiveness, you are forgiven... focus on being the best Christian that you can from This Point On. And ask for your husband to do the same. There is no shame or guilt in that.

[karen1]

Dom,

It will look like this: "Oh yes, I sincerely agree that the church says sex is a fundamental part of M. Of course, the church also does so in order to guarantee children (future Catholics) and so on."

Well, H if you agree it is important why isn't it happening in our M?

Well - x,y,z - tired, stressed, no time, baby, responsibilities etc....

Then after the conversation ends he will not hug me, apologize or any such thing. He will barely look at me (probably stare at the tv instead). Then he will stay up later than me for at least 3 or 4 days. If I were to then ask if he was mad at any of my comments or found them out of line he would say, "No, just tired, stressed, busy, baby etc........... At no time will he commit to any action. If I press it he will describe it as unsexy due to being "forced" to have sex. Apparently, anything that smacks of sex out of duty equates to force.

"Shame" is something I get from his look/demeanor etc... He has never actually said that he feels ashamed. However, it is written all over his behavior.

I cannot say that I am much involved in bible study myself. I am a regular church goer, regular with my prayers both in public (mealtimes etc...) and private. I will once in a while embark on bible study but not that often.

I processed my prior divorce in terms of its religious implications through the annulment process in the Catholic Church. I aired all the dirty laundry and went over it with the Archdiocese and my M was annulled on the grounds that a covenant could not be made under those conditions. It did a great deal to help me get over my difficulties with attending church and feeling ok about my R with God during the whole divorce process. I also went over it in confession when I converted to Catholicism. H is a cradle Catholic. I'm a convert.

Karen

[Dom R]

Dom,

It will look like this: "Oh yes, I sincerely agree that the church says sex is a fundamental part of M. Of course, the church also does so in order to guarantee children (future Catholics) and so on."

You have specific counters to that. St. Paul gives the specific reason why the command to not withold sex from your spouse is given. And it isnt the R.C. party line on "marriage is for procreation".

St. Paul specifically says it is in order that your spouse may not be tempted by satan.
There are lots of forms of temptation. One of which, is the sexual infidelity road. However, another... is to be tempted to "give up trying" in a marriage that is sexually unsatisfying.
You clearly have been tempted in this area.
It might be time to share that with him, if he asks about that aspect of things.

Well, H if you agree it is important why isn't it happening in our M?

Well - x,y,z - tired, stressed, no time, baby, responsibilities etc....

I'd say that's the 'wrong' question to ask.

Dont ask "why isnt it happening?" . That's about equivalent to asking, "give me excuses now".
Ask, "Since you agree you are commanded by God to do this; What are you going to do about making it happen? [and what can I do to help, if you need my help?]"

(and btw, 'you can help by asking me for it less' is not an acceptible answer from him; it contradicts the question rather than answering it)

If I press it he will describe it as unsexy due to being "forced" to have sex. Apparently, anything that smacks of sex out of duty equates to force.

This is why the biblical approach is so much better than you trying the wordly, "I want it" approach.
Because it's not you doing the forcing. it is God.

If you show him that it is God's will that he fulfil you... he then is in a position of having to answer to God for his lacking, rather than just you.


On top of that... if he doesnt feel like "it is sexy"...

TOO BAD!! This isnt about his needs, it's about him not meeting yours

If he wants to be involved in something that feels sexy, presumably, he is welcome to ask you for whatever he would like in that area. But since he apparently isnt interested in that... it's time for him to give you what YOU consider sexy!
And if he doesnt... he is violating part of the marital commandments from God.

You can get what you want, sexually, from him, if you dont back down from this.


I believe that, given his relationship with God as you describe it... once he sees that he has been in the wrong, he will participate non-grudgingly with you.
It's not like he hates you.
He loves you. He's just been lazy.

[cemar2]

karen1:

I am kind of stumped as to why a man would not want to give pleasure to his wife, even when he does not want sex. I LOVE to give my wife head, I LOVE to watch her orgasam, it makes me feel good to give pleasure. Did your husband grow up with sisters or have little male influence as a child?

[haphazard]

Lil, it is a dumb rule because it's an American rule about the English language. I can remember several grammar lessons about where to put the punctuation with regards to quotation marks, you put them where they ought to be, not within the quotation marks no matter what. So Kett and Burg are right as far as British English and common sense go. The commas only go inside the quotes when you are breaking up a sentence with something like "said Lil"
e.g "Looks like lovely weather," said Lil "for the time of year."
Not when you are listing separate items that need quotes around them.

What you have to remember is that much American spelling and many American grammatical rules were simplified so as to teach the language to immigrants having English as a second language. So it was dumbed down

[karen1]

"Hey, you grammerphiles are raining on my libido," said Karen "as if to imply that good grammar and hot sex are mutually exclusive."

[cac4]

"too-SHAY"

[haphazard]

Karen,

Some men are definitely more highly shame-prone than others. If he is a cradle catholic then it is quite likely that he was brought up to regard sex as somewhat shameful. So he has to contend with the shame of not fulfilling his wife as well as the shame of the whole idea of sex. It's a no win situation. It is much easier for him to think of you as just being somewhat pesky than to reassess is whole upbringing.

So you need to decide that you are no longer going to be largely quiet and occasionally somewhat pesky. You need to make it easier for him NOT to ignore your needs. The debate of course is how to do that. I agree with Stig saying you need to sit him down and have a serious talk. But you have to have a good hard think about what the "or else' is going to be if he won't step up. Clearly the "or else" is not going to be D. But what can you hold as a sanction? Think carefully about all the things you do and participate in because your are married. For example do you eat together? Maybe you could say something along the lines of "When we don't have sex I consider you like a roommate, if this continues then I will no longer participate in family mealtimes". That's just an example, I'm sure there are a lot of other things you could think of. I wouldn't shy away from things which may "hurt" the kids he is very kid-focused if he thinks a behaviour would hurt them he will want to avoid it. That might sound harsh but my guess is it won't even come to that.

I take issue with Dom saying shame is not a bad thing. I think for some people the pain of shame is too excruciating, they will do anything to avoid it and will often go into denial in order to do so, shift the blame onto the person who has triggered the shame.

Fran