For one specific example, about 4.5 years into our marriage we went to a party given by a woman he worked with (the woman who became his first significant EA). I knew no one at the party. Within 20 minutes of walking in, she had grabbed his hand and said she wanted to talk to him alone and walked him over to a couch where the two of them sat down. I simply mingled and talked with others and had a good time. I hardly looked over at them except to smile and after an hour and a half or more when others finally started sitting down and talking with them, I wandered over. This was the first time I had met this woman and my XH had become such good friends with her that I was expecting to become friends with her too. So they are still sitting side by side on the couch. She drank directly from his beer bottle and leans her head on him. WTF? I still stay completely calm. When we finally leave I don't say anything about her behavior for awhile and we talk about others at the party, blah blah blah. Finally I gently ask about his friend's behavior and immediately I get jumped on. "I knew you'd say something. That's just the ways she is - touchy feely. You're so insecure."
Okay, let me pick out the adjectives you used to describe your own behavior; calm, gentle. IMO, you were acting more strong cow than strong bunny. You were acting like a good adult rather tha a good child. The problem is you were acting strong cow in relation to your X's dysfunctional monkey rather than in relation to strong puppy behavior. I did this ALL THE TIME in my marriage. The same scene could have played out in my sich except typically there would have been 8 more beers and just maybe another woman involved. Let me explain the difference between strong cow and strong bunny. Strong cow is loving, mature, kind etc. and would remain calm in the face of monkey behavior. Strong bunny is lovable, vulnerable, childlike and desirous/deserving of care. What you might have done in this situation is sat down on the sofa with the two monkeys, smiled and smoothed your pretty little dress and said "I'm kind of thirsty." thereby forcing your X to choose which woman he is going to supply with beer. If he ignored you, you could have gotten up and approached a male friend who was just a friend and asked him to drive you home from the party making it clear to your H that there are men who will supply you with care if he is not willing and you have no intention of carrying the unfair burden of caring for your own bunny and his dysfunctional monkey.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Fearless, Of all the situations on the board, I most relate to the dysfunction between you and your XH. In animal terms, I reacted to my H's dysfunctional monkey as weak bunny, and then I turned into a cow. The weak bunny was still hurt underneath and lead to the LD behavior. My question to you is, how did you remain passionate with him?
Sometimes I wonder if I am overthinking the past but I guess I just want to make sure that I avoid repeating mistakes if possible!! As someone who can relate to your H in terms of often seeking validation from other people, I do not think I would be in that state if I was receiving this validation from H. I am now, so we are on a good path. My H seeks validation from me as well. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that. In fact, I think it is necessary for the passion to stay strong.
I was very good about giving validation to my XH. I think I'm good with Raven too. To me it's easy to give validation to the man I love!! My XH and I were opposite in that while outside validation is nice it's more important for me to have validation from my partner. He was the opposite. Although I'm sure he would not have liked not getting validation from me if that had happened.
That what he was doing was painful to you because you loved him so much and really want to be each others "go to" person for that stuff.
Yeah, that's also what I did. I was told I was the one with the problem - jealousy. Maybe like you said, your H was just really dysfunctional. But then why would you be attracted to him? It doesn't make sense.
Actually I did recognize the problem but I didn't know how deep it was. Like I've said, while I can't say I liked it, I could handle my XH doing some flirting. I also just wrote off some of his need for validation as "just the way he is." And probably he's not as dysfunctional as some either. I think much of his issues boil down to Jung's idea of the Shadow. We all have Shadows that develop and then we develop coping mechanisms for the Shadow. However at some point the coping mechanisms for that Shadow fail and basically MLC CAN occur if a person doesn't learn how to integrate their Shadow. James Hollis has written a lot about this.
My XH stated that his issue was that he was always looking for others to lead him. He started to become aware of it and hate that about himself and yet he still wanted to be led. So whether I led or tried to have him lead didn't matter because he was angry at me either way. if I led, he was mad for being weak and letting me lead. If I wanted him to lead, he was angry because he didn't want or like to lead. He did tell me that he thinks I did too much for him. Of course it's easy to say that I shouldn't have however with his mother and sister less than half a mile away along with other women around, anything I didn't do was usually done by them. Plus when I didn't do things, he would be angry too.
So again I did recognize a lot of this prior to our marriage but I didn't recognize the depth of his issues or the significance of the issues to our relationship.
But as far as wondering why I was with him, I don't think I make it clear enough that he is a wonderful man. He's smart and dedicated to work. He's incredibly gifted as an attorney and especially working with Juveniles and being a GAL (Guardian ad Litem). He has a great sense of humor and we had a lot of common interests. We laughed all the time. Our SL was good. All-in-all most of our life together was great. I didn't start DBing because I was afraid of being alone. I started DBing because I had lost my best friend and believed my marriage could be saved.
It's still ironic because if the woman he had an affair with had not gone after him, I'm sure we would probably still be together. I just wonder if we would have sorted any of this other stuff out or not.
FWIW...
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I don't know if your xH was so much puppy as he was out of control monkey... or perhaps a combination of the two. I'm thinking that your confidence/self-sufficiency intimidated him in some way... yet when you showed vulnerability, he got angry, because it pretty much showed a bright beacon on his own piss poor behavior. Kind of a love/hate thing he must have had for you... I wonder if that ever went on with his own mother...
Sounds to me like your xH has some security issues of his own; as LFL pointed out, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to go about addressing that.
In any event, it ISN'T something you can fix, and not only that, it could be extremely damaging/risky to you to hang around while he gets it figured out. Not every marriage is fixable, nor should every marriage be saved. Everyone always empathizes with the one left behind; few realize the enormous pain it can cause the person who walks away.
In any event, I'm glad you've met someone like Raven, with whom you sound very happy.
To me it's easy to give validation to the man I love!!
Interesting. I'm assuming you didn't feel validated by your Ex often, especially when he was having his A's, but you still gave it to him?
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I was told I was the one with the problem - jealousy
That's just mean behavior and not at all honest.
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My XH stated that his issue was that he was always looking for others to lead him.
Women can get away with that sometimes but a man who needs to be led is not very attractive. I'll ditto what RJ asked, how did you maintain passion for him? Are you sure you're not rewriting history? still stumped
(Kett) (This assumes you mean "pushing through resistance" in a ... legal? way. Some serious seduction, some saucy tease. I *assume* you aren't referring to *actually* not taking a *serious* "no" for an answer. Which would be the deal-breaker to end all deal-breakers with me, right up there with physical violence. The epitome of disrespect. But I'm sure that's not what you meant.)
You once quoted the movie Oscar in this very forum, so I like you.
Never ever do that up there to me again.
Yikes!!! that was a pretty nonspecific rebuke, but let me just say that "I'm sure that's not what you meant" means exactly that, NOT "I say, 'I'm sure that's not what you meant', but actually I do think that you possibly meant that."
To be as clear as possible, I didn't think you were advocating marital rape. At all. Just put it down to some crazy drive of mine to be crystal clear (perhaps overly so) on a subject I feel passionately about.
I like you too, and I had no intention to offend. I apologize.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Anyways, what does this have to do with strong puppy? The monkey is the most unreliable animal. Somebody who was out-of-control monkey could never be faithful. However, the only way to keep the monkey in control is to constantly spank it which would get quite tiring. Therefore, if you want to be a dom but you want to be in a healthy balanced relationship, you should seek a woman who has enough cow to balance her monkey. The cow is not the sexiest animal but she is reliable. All women have cows and the way to get the cow to manifest strongly is to vibe strong puppy. The lioness is reliable and sexy but she is also sexually dominant. If you do dominate a lioness you have effectively turned her into a monkey and you are back to square 1.
I have to say, for the record, that I disagree with this, but I can't lodge my rebuttal right now... except to say that I don't believe a woman should EVER use her cow with her H, no matter WHAT animal he is displaying. EVER.
I don't believe a woman should EVER use her cow with her H,
Really?! Well if I go by MJ's definition, the cow is lovable, mature, and kind. What's wrong with that? I just mentioned I think I pulled out the cow with H last night and thought it was a pretty good way to go (in small doses of course). All animals in moderation still seems like a smart approach. Maybe you can clarify when you get a chance.
Well if I go by MJ's definition, the cow is lovable, mature, and kind. What's wrong with that?
Well... I will say it may be my misunderstanding of the definition of cow, but I see cow as... 'nurturing,' which covers that definition and then some. I get a definite feeling of 'Mom' when I think of cow. Mojo often says... "I do cow and bake pies.' LOL. The only person who bakes pies... that I know of... is mom or grandma... to bring the warm, cozy feeling to home. And there isn't anything wrong with that... I think it is great and necessary, especially for building a strong 'home' feel for everyone.
But when I think of 'cow' in terms of an H... geeze... ewh. That gets into 'mommy-ing' your H... and I just don't know any way faster to kill a sex drive than getting parental with a spouse (conversely, a man being too much St. Bernard with his W).
I put a St. Bernard and a Cow together in my head... and the only nookie I can see coming from that pairing is... for procreation reasons... in the dark... and most of your clothes on.
A strong bunny can be very kind. And so can a sexually satisfied Lioness. (In relation to a man). I am absolutely 'cow' when I am nesting, cleaning, cooking, taking care of kids... an H will naturally benefit by default from such activities, but an H who SEEKS OUT my cow... is, to me, looking for nurturing of a weak puppy... rather than a strong puppy who needs a nice tongue cleaning and a nudge with her nose for support from the Lioness.
And I have to say... my very satisfied Lioness is one helluva gourmet cook... loves wine, music, dim lights/candles... especially after the cow has gone to bed from all her work...
So. Give me some room if I am misdefining creatures... I could easily be confused. LOL
