I thought about what you said here and you've kind of won me over. No I wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep my girls. Not because I don't love them as much as Miss IC, but they NEED their mother...those are her babies and...and the biological bond that they share, I don't have it in me to try and break that.
Well. You also view your wife as an excellent mother. It might be different for you if you didn't... but... in a general sense, at least, you get my point.
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FWIW, Miss IC is not one to hold that over me as a one-up scenario.
That, my friend, is because Miss IC is one helluva woman. But you already know that.
However I also think it's naive to say that it is all about my behavior because some men automatically seem threatened by me at times just because I'm an engineer. It hasn't happened often but I have met men that are threatened by a woman who is smart or has a good career. In general those men, to me, seem to be much less "manly" anyway. They seem to need the superficial differences in order to feel like a man.
It is a fact that men are less likely to hit on a woman's internet dating profile if she has indicated that she makes more money than him. However, the Captain-of-Industry I am dating now told me that he wouldn't date a waitress but when I said "But what if it was her day job and she was writing the great American novel by night in her garret?" he agreed that would be different. I think intelligence is definitely an aphrodisiac for either sex if it doesn't manifest as "too nerdy to f*ck" but power/money are trickier matters to handle because they can so easily manifest as "control".
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Librarian, huh? Yeah, I know I am not necessarily a stereotypical engineer but then again I am not sure I am stereotypical anything!! can you sense any of the farm girl in me?
Definitely. In fact, I am thinking that your philosophy might be in alignment with Garrison Keillor's in that you might like a relationship in which the woman is strong, the man is good-looking and all the children are above average -lol. I like that philosophy myself but still I find myself compelled to date men who can easily bench press me lately. Although I was tempted by the gorgeous 5'7" Italian guy who was 8 years younger than me. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything that vibes the sophisticated languor of a blond Sophia Loren in my wardrobe or I might have gone for it.
Note to Self: Buy something that vibes sophisticated languor.
Last edited by MJontheMend; 01/09/0810:12 PM.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It is a fact that men are less likely to hit on a woman's internet dating profile if she has indicated that she makes more money than him.
I'm sure that is overall true although I think it's become less and less important as women are making more money. I made more than my XH for the first year or two of our marriage and he didn't care at all. Of course his two best friends' wives made more than their husbands to start also. None of them seemed to mind. The one guy did eventually end up making an obscene amount of money and his wife became a SAHM. Of course she then ended up leaving him for another man. The other woman also left her H. I just can't seem to see a pattern considering my XH was the one to leave.
Also my XH was 6'5", a successful attorney, etc., so I'm not sure that I was ever overpowering to him at all. I started to write before that what was interesting was, especially the last 5 years of our marriage, my XH was uncomfortable with any of my animals. The bunny made him feel put upon and "played" like I was doing a "poor me" and probably left him feeling inadequate, the monkey would annoy him and he would look at me like I was crazy (Stop touching me), the cow was boring and to be taken for granted, and the lioness was too controlling. It's so much easier to look back and see that there was nothing I could have done to make things work for him because it really wasn't about me. (It felt like me because of his feelings and because all of those animal behaviors from other women seemed just fine with him)
The fact is/was he was uncomfortable with himself and my closeness to him enabled him to project any of his negative inner feelings toward me. He was growing to hate his puppy and yet that was his prevailing animal mode and he yielded to that in his life much of the time. (Women ALWAYS seemed to do things for him and take care of him. He never asked they just DID. For example while we were dating in college, a woman friend of his who had graduated stopped by his house. He wasn't there but his roommates let her in and she cleaned his room for him. I was a bit bothered and he acted like it was the most normal thing in the world.) He could act monkey but had some serious underlying issues there and was not in control of his monkey (Okay that just sounds funny!). His cow (male equivalent - stallion??) was not developed too well plus taking control is not his forte. (He always wanted me to do the follow up if we had some problems and would be mad at me if I wanted him to do similar jobs or asked anything of him.) And his wolf was not at all developed which makes sense of you think about his puppy behavior. He, as far as I saw in the 16 years I was with him, never had proactive wolf behavior but in reaction to other's behaviors might demonstrate wolf, I think. My bunny could bring out his wolf toward ME IF he felt uneasy with the bunny. Meaning that if he did something and I felt sad, insecure, etc., his reaction would be anger and deflection away from my bunny. Like if I told him "I feel unimportant to you when you ignore me and talk and flirt with other women at a party," that would bring out an attack on how insecure I was and how that was my problem to deal with. OTOH if my bunny came out for let's say sadness over my mom's illness or fear of heights while backpacking along an advanced trail in the Grand Canyon, he could handle that and his (stallion?) could come out and take care of me. I guess what was hard is that I didn't want to have to hide my bunny from him. I wanted to be able to trust that he would care for me. So while I didn't develop a habit of hiding my bunny, I have found I have very low expectations of how the bunny will be treated and am constantly amazed when Raven doesn't get mad at the bunny!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I agree that there was nothing you could have done "right" because your X wasn't doing his half of the dance but consider the following:
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My bunny could bring out his wolf toward ME IF he felt uneasy with the bunny. Meaning that if he did something and I felt sad, insecure, etc., his reaction would be anger and deflection away from my bunny. Like if I told him "I feel unimportant to you when you ignore me and talk and flirt with other women at a party," that would bring out an attack on how insecure I was and how that was my problem to deal with. OTOH if my bunny came out for let's say sadness over my mom's illness or fear of heights while backpacking along an advanced trail in the Grand Canyon, he could handle that and his (stallion?) could come out and take care of me. I guess what was hard is that I didn't want to have to hide my bunny from him. I wanted to be able to trust that he would care for me. So while I didn't develop a habit of hiding my bunny, I have found I have very low expectations of how the bunny will be treated and am constantly amazed when Raven doesn't get mad at the bunny!!
What if when you were at that party where you felt like your X was ignoring you, you has acted "as if" you knew you were the most important thing in his world? I think that if you had been in a relationship in which you really believed that you could have observed your X across the room engaged in some fun social flirtation and just exchanged a momentary smile with him that would have touched base and signaled "I'm glad you're enjoying yourself. We'll have even more fun later when we're home alone together." or something similar. You were being weak bunny when you asked for verbal reassurance of your importance to him. Not a big deal in a healthy relationship like you have with Raven. Your X was able to handle sad bunny appropriately when it didn't seem like you were accusing him of causing the pain. My 2bx thought it was psycho when I would ask him for a hug after he did something to hurt my feelings. Kind of it was. Like telling somebody that they are a bully and then asking them for a bandage. Let's assume that your X was engaged in thoughtless or purposefully pain-inducing behavior when he flirted with other women at the party, wouldn't it have shaken his foundations a bit if you had smiled at him across the room as if you were absolutely confident of his love and attention? I mean he would have had to at least think "What's she so happy about? I'm over here flirting with other women. WTF ? " Also, it would have been impossible for those other women not to pick up on that vibe. I'm not suggesting any sort of fakery here. You knew that you were a woman who deserved consideration and care so you could have projected that in a positive manner. If he then stumbled with his step in the dance, he would look like an *ss even to himself.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
(fearless) I am, I have had no problem feeling like the WOMAN in my relationships. Especially with Raven.
You should be banished from the boards forever for that! If you had a problem feeling like a woman around that guy you'd need topflight professional help.
In addition, Raven can be puppy, monkey, What's the man's equivalent of cow - stallion or St. Bernard?, or wolf and I can still feel like he is a man.
He and I are gonna have to talk about this "puppy" business. Though I gotta admit that a gathering of db'ers is pretty much a bunny/puppy based event.
Cow = St. Bernard
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Well, a woman is a fool if she marries a man with no paternal instinct...even if she gets turned-off when suggestions that she might need to wear long underwear manifest from excessive St.Bernardism. One of the events that rung the death-knell of my marriage was when I was in a relatively relaxed mode with my 2bx and he took that as an opportunity to bring up the concept of quitting his job in the not too distant future. I said something about paying for our D's college and he said something like "Oh, she'll be alright. She always lands on her feet." What a PAL
This is the kind of thing I was wondering about earlier. Does the maternal instinct ever shut off? Or is it perfectly reasonable to subsidize a grown woman to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars without even questioning it, and perfectly unreasonable and PAL-like to question it?
Originally Posted By: Imconfused0807
I thought about what you said here and you've kind of won me over. No I wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep my girls. Not because I don't love them as much as Miss IC, but they NEED their mother...those are her babies and...and the biological bond that they share, I don't have it in me to try and break that.
Children NEED their father too, at least as much as their mother and possibly more so as they get older. I may be biased or simply odd, though, since I would much rather have spent my childhood without my mother than without my father, but "maternal instinct" and "knowing how to teach a child to be a happy, useful member of society" are two very different things and children need the latter much more than they need a biological connection.
Not that biological connections aren't important, mind you. But it's not the only consideration, at least to me.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
This is the kind of thing I was wondering about earlier. Does the maternal instinct ever shut off? Or is it perfectly reasonable to subsidize a grown woman to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars without even questioning it, and perfectly unreasonable and PAL-like to question it?
If my 2bx simply had a strong philosophy along the lines of "People over 18 should be completely independent and self-supporting" and was pro-active about implementing it that wouldn't be PAL-like. I might not care for that philosophy but I wouldn't disrespect a man for honestly expressing it. He was projecting "I am weak and our daughter is strong so I shouldn't be counted on to provide her with support much longer." It is true that our D16 is generally higher functioning than her father but it didn't really make me want to continue in a relationship with him when he pointed that out.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The ABSOLUTELY DO, for all kinds of reasons. But that's not really where the biological connection discussion came up. And quite honestly, a mother who holds on TOO LONG can ruin a child, IMO.
But just because she 'let's go' doesn't mean that the 'mother I am inside' goes away. It means, as a responsible mother, I teach and groom my children to operate independently, and hopefully, operate very well, independently (A dad is very much a part of that, and he sometimes has to help his W let go). Sometimes a part of that is sending them on their way, whether they think they are ready to go or not. (From personal experience, that is not always an easy thing to do as a mom, but... after they go, you head on into the bedroom and cry your eyes out... pull out the baby books, smell their clothes... ahem. Or... maybe not...)
My best friend, for YEARS, had 'dependency' issues because her mother... oh my Gawd... she did SO MUCH for her kids they had no idea how to do for themselves.
That's a different issue, though. And a man who refuses to pay for his child's higher education isn't necessarily a 'bad' father. But if he uses that as an excuse to quit his job, then I'd say other problems with him are afoot.
Point taken. It does look like he was looking for an excuse to stop supporting himself, much less anyone else.
Originally Posted By: Corri
But just because she 'let's go' doesn't mean that the 'mother I am inside' goes away. It means, as a responsible mother, I teach and groom my children to operate independently, and hopefully, operate very well, independently (A dad is very much a part of that, and he sometimes has to help his W let go). Sometimes a part of that is sending them on their way, whether they think they are ready to go or not. (From personal experience, that is not always an easy thing to do as a mom, but... after they go, you head on into the bedroom and cry your eyes out... pull out the baby books, smell their clothes... ahem. Or... maybe not...)
Yep. But is this a case of going against instinct because your higher brain functions know better, whereas our ancestors couldn't have babied their grown-up children anyway and it didn't matter whether their instincts made them want to? Or is something else going on in the parents who don't willingly let go? I suspect that instinct had a hand in shaping society, and society had a hand in shaping our habits, and it's too fuzzy to definitely separate one from the other.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Rogue Creation or Rogue Reformation. I don't know that I'm of the mind to have to teach a man how to do anything. I'd rather just accept them as they come, and then decide if I'm going to hang around.
That's uninspired Lioness, huh?
Okay... back to laying under my tree, on my hot, bright summer day.
