. .....come to think of it...maybe that's why he didn't want to have sex. Lol. PTSD. LFL
LFL, Don't laugh! Our MC mentioned how he wished that men had more of a choice these days about being present in the delivery room, that the mental image of watching the baby come out has thrown many men off course sexually. Now, that wasn't the source of the problem for your H, but I do think his seeing you in that wifely/maternal role didn't help. The fact that you reached for soldier boy was a turn-on for him because he was able to see you in another light ( and also helped to even the score, reducing his guilt/shame over abandoning you).
That doesn't change the original point, though. Do you see that?
Well, I think what other people are saying, mainly the women, is that concepts like dishonesty and honor and loyalty are really not biological at all, but societally taught to us. It is not a biological response, but a learned behavior. There is no evidence that I know of to link dishonesty and maternal instinct. That's a stretch. But you did say it was Your theory. Not one many women would want to embrace for obvious reasons.
LFL, Don't laugh! Our MC mentioned how he wished that men had more of a choice these days about being present in the delivery room, that the mental image of watching the baby come out has thrown many men off course sexually. Now, that wasn't the source of the problem for your H, but I do think his seeing you in that wifely/maternal role didn't help. The fact that you reached for soldier boy was a turn-on for him because he was able to see you in another light ( and also helped to even the score, reducing his guilt/shame over abandoning you).
I think you are probably right RJ. Funny how things evolve in a M. It's never dull. lol And H was gung-ho to be totally involved too. He cut the cords for both the kids and was soooo proud. He tells these birthing war stories to this day with such passion like he lived it himself. And I guess he did. Wow. I haven't thought about that for a long time. Makes me feel all mushy inside for H. awwww,....
SG, What this man said about his daughter...I sooo know the feeling and it really has nothing to do with honor. It can be about honor, but in the true sense....like you said, it's just there!
I don't look into my girl's eyes and do what it takes to protect and provide for them out of duty or honor...."because it's the right thing to do." No! I do it out of love....just like a mother would. They are apart of me just as much as they are apart of the mom.
Yes, that's what I thought. Thanks IC for chiming in! You have two very lucky girls.
Human beings fall right in the middle of the spectrum when it comes to gender differences between the male and female of the species. We can choose to emphasize these differences or we can choose to de-emphasize these differences. IMO, emphasizing gender differences leads to a more erotic and romantic relationship. De-emphasizing gender differences leads to a more egalitarian and friendly relationship. What makes sense to me is to recognize that this is true and be self-aware about what you want from a relationship at any given time and how you want to go about getting it in a manner that "works". If I walk into my local lumberyard wearing my overalls, no makeup and manifesting a no-nonsense manner, I will get one kind of service. If I walk into my local lumberyard wearing my best bunkey outfit and manifest a wiggle in my walk, I will get a different kind of service. If I walk into my local lumberyard wearing my floral print dress and manifesting a quiet librarian manner, I will get another kind of service. If I walk into my local lumberyard carrying cupcakes.....okay, you get the picture.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
We can choose to emphasize these differences or we can choose to de-emphasize these differences. IMO, emphasizing gender differences leads to a more erotic and romantic relationship. De-emphasizing gender differences leads to a more egalitarian and friendly relationship.
I guess it depends on which "differences" you're talking about, doesn't it? Maybe it's "easier" for me because I am 5'2" and have long hair (For whatever that info is worth!) but it seems to me that no matter how independent, strong, smart, scientific, rational, etc. I am, I have had no problem feeling like the WOMAN in my relationships. Especially with Raven. I can be bunny, monkey, cow or lioness and I still feel "okay" and womanly. In addition, Raven can be puppy, monkey, What's the man's equivalent of cow - stallion or St. Bernard?, or wolf and I can still feel like he is a man.
But this is my question what gender differences are you talking about? Do I have to be stereotypically helpless in order for a man to feel like a man around me? Do I have to pretend I'm not an engineer because that's too equal to a man? Do I have to pretend that I don't love sports and don't hate shopping because that makes me too equal???
I know I've mentioned this before but my parents and grandparents how very loving, egalitarian AND passionate marriages. While my mom and grandmother are very strong, smart women, it never seemed to distract from their womanliness and from their husbands attraction for them. So again for me, it appears that if a man is truly strong and manly, he can handle any woman regardless of whether she emphasizes her differences or not. Because the difference is there!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Well, I think what other people are saying, mainly the women, is that concepts like dishonesty and honor and loyalty are really not biological at all, but societally taught to us. It is not a biological response, but a learned behavior.
Uhm... if you look back at how humans evolved... I could debate that one...
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There is no evidence that I know of to link dishonesty and maternal instinct. That's a stretch. But you did say it was Your theory. Not one many women would want to embrace for obvious reasons.
When looked through the 'lens' of honor, 'dishonesty' takes on a negative connotation. But as Mo pointed out... our behaviors may be viewed as dishonest, simply because we are the weaker sex. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to survive. If I'm in the wild and my protector dies, I'm in the market for another one. Not because I need to feel all 'in love,' but because I need to protect my children. I would have the new man's babies to bond him to me. Loyalty. The new man may take offspring in as his own because he has his own with me. And none of that really has anything to do with love.
However. Look how SG and Ms. IC came in to defend their H's. Loyalty. IC came real close to breaking Ms. IC's loyalty, and not to go down a dark alley... but if that R were to have crumbled, I bet money she'd fight tooth and nail to keep her girls... not that IC would fight any less... but from a mother's standpoint, those are her babies... that's how she'd feel about it, I bet.
Societal progress, and the notion of 'romantic' love has changed lots of things. I just think the underlying biological coding is still there, and affects us in ways we probably never consider.
Maybe it's "easier" for me because I am 5'2" and have long hair
To be honest, I think that this is true in some sort of very generalized averaged sense. If you are also what we usually mean when we say "pretty" and if you also have something close to a .7 waist to bust/hip ratio it is even more true. Men will naturally treat you more like a female than, for instance, Janet Reno, for these reasons. Of course, it's just reflexive and therefore not very meaningful. Also, I know people don't always write in way that reflects their real life personality but your manner seems fairly feminine to me. You come across more like librarian than engineer - lol. OTOH, I'm sure you've met a women who have very little that is conventionally feminine about their appearance superficially yet seem to project femininity anyways and I would definitely say that it isn't done by projecting "helplessness" I think the women who attract clueless men by acting helpless are generally quite conventionally attractive.
I will freely admit, given similar behavior, I will vibe more feminine in relation to Jimmy Smits than PeeWee Herman.
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But this is my question what gender differences are you talking about? Do I have to be stereotypically helpless in order for a man to feel like a man around me? Do I have to pretend I'm not an engineer because that's too equal to a man? Do I have to pretend that I don't love sports and don't hate shopping because that makes me too equal???
As far as helplessness goes, I think almost the opposite is true. If I "let" a man open a door for me that means I am not helpless. If I were truly helpless he would have to open the door for me and I wouldn't be able to "let" him do it. I think the fact that you are an engineer would make you more attractive because it shows that you are intelligent and therefore it would mean more if you admired a man. See where I'm going with this? Nothing about you that vibes conventionally masculine will make a man feel less masculine unless you use it to make him seem less like a man because he can't match you in that regard. In fact, many of these attributes will make him feel more like a man because such a prize as you has chosen him.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
However. Look how SG and Ms. IC came in to defend their H's. Loyalty. IC came real close to breaking Ms. IC's loyalty, and not to go down a dark alley... but if that R were to have crumbled, I bet money she'd fight tooth and nail to keep her girls... not that IC would fight any less... but from a mother's standpoint, those are her babies... that's how she'd feel about it, I bet.
I thought about what you said here and you've kind of won me over. No I wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep my girls. Not because I don't love them as much as Miss IC, but they NEED their mother...those are her babies and...and the biological bond that they share, I don't have it in me to try and break that.
FWIW, Miss IC is not one to hold that over me as a one-up scenario.
Nothing about you that vibes conventionally masculine will make a man feel less masculine unless you use it to make him seem less like a man because he can't match you in that regard.
That's my point! I can be in a conventionally male career, not wear make-up, dress conservatively, talk sports, etc. and yet men still react to me as a woman and I'm just fine with that.
However I also think it's naive to say that it is all about my behavior because some men automatically seem threatened by me at times just because I'm an engineer. It hasn't happened often but I have met men that are threatened by a woman who is smart or has a good career. In general those men, to me, seem to be much less "manly" anyway. They seem to need the superficial differences in order to feel like a man. For me self confidence is what makes men men and women women. Otherwise they come across as children (and not in a good way:))
Librarian, huh? Yeah, I know I am not necessarily a stereotypical engineer but then again I am not sure I am stereotypical anything!! can you sense any of the farm girl in me?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
