Everything you are saying about the weak puppies and weak bunnies makes total sense to me. H and I started out in our R both with weak versions of these two cuddly animals and hence became very fused in a mutually cuddly type R. My own bunny (I think) bounced back within a year or two. His puppy did not. It started to become noticeable to me that he had a weak puppy but I responded with ever stronger cow to try and nurture the pup back to health. Occasionally with lioness when I got irritated. (Monkey got very bored). His response to lioness was generally either even weaker puppy (in an attempt to bring the cow out again to rescue him) or a rather nasty wolf. Neither of which were exactly endearing. Eventually he hid the puppy completely and I put the cow WAY out to pasture. Things degenerated to the point where his wolf and my lioness would circle around each other snarling. The cuddly animals were safely locked in their cages out of harm's way.
I've no idea whether there's a St bernard anywhere.
BTW I'm interested in the lack of response to my new thread - Clearly I'm delusional about the possibilities for a decent R with my H and no-one has the guts to point this out to me yet.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Hell, I don't know why women don't honor contracts.
Maybe add some or most women but certainly not ALL. I know that I honor contracts and believe strongly in honoring contracts. The whole Ellen Degeneres thing bothered me because of her wish to pretty much ignore the fact that she had signed a contract. If she didn't like the contract's terms, then she shouldn't have signed the contract.
But there are men that ignore contracts also, aren't there? Is the "difference" that women won't honor a contract for an emotional reason and men won't honor a contract for a financial or egotistical reason??
Anyway...
I'm talking about keeping your word; doing what you say you're going to do. If a guy tells me he's going to do something, I'm confident he'll do it. If a single woman who's interested in me (doesn't have to be romantic interest) tells me she's going to do something, I'm confident she'll do it. If a married woman tells me she's going to do something, I'm fairly confident she'll do it. If a single woman tells me she's going to do something...it's a crapshoot. Near as I can tell, the fact that she told me she'd do it has no bearing on whether or not it actually gets done. If she feels like doing it when the time rolls around, she'll do it, otherwise, forget it.
I would think that there are plenty of women that have known men who are the same way. Considering the fact that there are, unfortunately, plenty of us women whose husband's have cheated on us or left us obviously there are men that don't honor their contracts and are dishonest.
And while I'm at it, I'm not sure that Corri's theory on women really holds up across all cultures so that in itself makes it seem more about cultural or learned behavior rather than about innate gender differences. As far as I can remember I thought there were/are cultures that put women's honor above other traits.
I might be wrong but I think I am an honorable woman. For me it is important for my own sake that I am. But in many ways in our culture I don't feel like that trait is particularly admired. Many men seem more interested in women who constantly get themselves into financial or personal messes than in women that can keep themselves relatively together. So what does that "teach" women??
Of course my working theory is that many men are becoming more weak themselves and they are attracted to weak women who then can make them feel better about themselves. Just a thought...
Fortunately I don't really care what "most" men want, I'm interested in what I want and finding a man who wants the same. And I've found him Growing up with many strong women and men, I had a chance to see men that admired and loved the strength of their women. The men definitely were not "afraid" of their women and also never seemed to have a need to put down their women. Which is something I have seen much more of recently in relationships. Men and women that put their spouses down in front of others. Why would married couples do this??
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I might be wrong but I think I am an honorable woman. For me it is important for my own sake that I am. But in many ways in our culture I don't feel like that trait is particularly admired. Many men seem more interested in women who constantly get themselves into financial or personal messes than in women that can keep themselves relatively together. So what does that "teach" women??
Of course my working theory is that many men are becoming more weak themselves and they are attracted to weak women who then can make them feel better about themselves. Just a thought...
I think the reason I talk about strong bunny and strong puppy is that there is more than one way to be brave. It's true that a man is revealing himself as weak if he needs to be needed by a weak woman. OTOH, it seems reasonable to me that a man might want to be with a woman who is both trusting and strong, not trusting just because she is strong. If a dark alley must be traversed, sometimes a man might want to be with a woman who carries her own sword but sometimes he might want to be with a woman who takes his hand and says "I trust you.". The woman who will only ever enter the own alley with her own sword in hand is IMO less brave than the one who can do both. The woman who always has to have her own sword is more concerned with earning the respect of men than engendering (literally!)their affection.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I am talking about maternal instinct, which is biological, not cultural. I don't think that women are honorable like men, but that does not mean we are not honest, ethical, moral or even reliable. It means that all that stuff will go out the window to protect a child, without thought or consideration for self, contracts, Husband or even God. Everyone and everything will be put on hold until the child is safe, or I am dead from the effort.
Our sense of loyalty is tied directly to protecting the offspring.
Ket:
Not wanting to coo at a baby, or preferring to hang out with boys doesn't mean you don't have a maternal instinct. You're a woman. You've got it. Uhmmm... do you have a best friend? And would you describe that relationship feeling more honorable or loyal? Did you ever stick up for any of your guy friends that you played ball with? I'd say if so, your reason for jumping into the fray, and their reason for jumping into the fray, is probably different. "Friend Loyalty."
That's my point. That sense of loyalty comes directly from maternal instinct/survival needs.
(Kett) Burgbud, you cannot respect women too much.
Oh, a guy can definitely respect women too much.
Just for one example, do you want your man to respect you every time you say, "Not tonight dear; I've got a headache"? I can assure you that several women on this very forum have said that it's quite attractive when a man pushes thru that resistance without getting pissy about it.
If I was with a man who caved up whenever his puppy might be making an appearance, I would feel like he didn't trust me to care well for his puppy, whereas I am perfectly competent with puppies.
I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that even if you feel like he doesn't trust you with his puppy, if his other animals are in order you're not going to care much. You may complain about it to your friends but it won't threaten your M at all. If anything it probably makes him more interesting and attractive.
If he can't trust me with the whole zoo, why the hell is he with me at all?
Sex.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
What I am basically saying is that the way a man becomes Alpha is by earning the respect of other men and the trust of women. If you want a man to vibe Alpha relative to you, you have to trust him. However, the more Alpha (worthy of respect) you vibe yourself, the more Alpha a guy will vibe relative to you if you trust him. So both are important. But don't forget the monkey and cow!! -lol
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I don't think that women are honorable like men, but that does not mean we are not honest, ethical, moral or even reliable. It means that all that stuff will go out the window to protect a child, without thought or consideration for self, contracts, Husband or even God. Everyone and everything will be put on hold until the child is safe, or I am dead from the effort.
In my experience, married women with children are more honorable than single women without children, especially when it comes to being reliable.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
True. And it is also true that a guy can do too much to earn a woman's trust. However, I would argue that manifesting as strong puppy when appropriate is not doing too much to earn a woman's trust and affection.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
BTW, to a general audience, what the hell is this prejudice against the puppy? How unreasonable is that? Like every man doesn't have a puppy. What kind of LTR will thrive on pretending that isn't so? God knows I have no wish to spend an inordinate amount of time cowing the puppy. That is hell on desire. But come on. In a serious relationship (read: marriage) any man is going to have his puppy moments. It's authentic. If I was with a man who caved up whenever his puppy might be making an appearance, I would feel like he didn't trust me to care well for his puppy, whereas I am perfectly competent with puppies. (Again, I don't know where you guys are finding these women.) If he can't trust me with the whole zoo, why the hell is he with me at all? What motivation do I then have to expose my bunny? He gets to be one up by not having a puppy, but I still should display my bunny so he can be all rescuing and knightly? Sucks to that. Everyone wants to be the saviour sometimes. Nor would I desire a (committed) relationship where *nobody* shows their vulnerable animal. What's the point? Are we all not equally human and flawed and vulnerable?
Kett, I can't agree with this more and I don't know if it rings true in all LTR, but I know in our case, things did not thrive until the strong puppy made an appearance. It took me grabbing it by the scruff of the neck and pulling it out of the cave but it was there and had not been killed I'm not so sure it was a matter of me not being trust worthy of caring for his puppy as much as it was IC never really allowing himself to be close enough or open enough to show any form of vulnerability...I could be wrong though. It has just really opened our relationship up for growth. I don't think it will ever be easy for IC to offer up strong puppy, but I think we are getting to a point where he realizes that I'm not going to take the boot to it if it does show up
And I agree, where are they finding these women????
(Mojo) People will act honorably in relationship to you if they respect you.
Maybe I'm channeling Stig here but I'd tend to think that people will act honorably in relationship to you if they respect themselves. If I tell somebody I don't respect that I'm going to do something, I do it.
The odds are pretty good that if a single woman isn't attracted to you it is because she doesn't respect you.
I typed up a list of counterexamples but I'm just going to say that I disagree. Not all my interactions with women are relationshippy.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Growing up with many strong women and men, I had a chance to see men that admired and loved the strength of their women. The men definitely were not "afraid" of their women and also never seemed to have a need to put down their women. Which is something I have seen much more of recently in relationships. Men and women that put their spouses down in front of others. Why would married couples do this??