Hang in there guys. Now that you know better you'll do better.
You are so nice Karen. Actually I don't see lots of the guys making much progress in their R. Sorry to say that but the bitterness oozes out of their posts sometimes. I think Corri just mentioned that. A disrespect comes across that any half-witted woman will pick up on in a flash.
That isn't disrespect LFL as much as it is pure, unbridled pain. Pain produced bravado in a lot of people (mostly men but some women).
I do understand that. I've been in that place too often myself. But these guys have a chance now to start fresh and I just think they are letting themselves be overwhelmed by the past pain. It's just not going to be healthy for them. And I love these guys! I want them to succeed.
There's also something about "doing what works"....hmmm. My thoughts on this haven't coalesced but I lived a couple of examples of "doing what works"
And I bet you don't get why doing what works... actually works. LOL. I'm going to go back to my statement that women are inherently dishonest. I'm surprised none of my female counterparts slammed me on it, but maybe it's because they instinctively know what I mean.
First of all, I didn't make that statement as a slam against my gender. It's a theory of mine, and I have nothing scientific to back up the link I'm about to make... but.
Women are inherently dishonest because of our maternal instinct. It is genetically encoded into us. Every woman here knows what I'm talking about, too... for there is nothing, nothing that will supercede it... not honor, not God, not even self-preservation. (I mean, I would lie, steal, cheat, kill, or die... to protect my baby... and I'd do it without blinking an eye or without even one cogent thought in my head. I'd do it in spite of myself.) As a matter of fact, I see it as THE living form of God, and the closest thing God could come up with to give to men is their sense of honor.
Having this... maternal instinct is not to say it doesn't cause us problems in other areas of our life... just as a man's honor can become a conundrum for him. But we all scratch our head in perplexity over this maternal instinct thing... even we women don't really understand it... it's just there. And when it isn't there... when a woman actually allows something to come in between her and her instinct to protect her children at all costs, we as a race, are collectively stunned by it (Susan Smith). There is nothing, as a race, that we hold in lower regard... there is no lower rung on the totem pole.
Having said that... where I pick up on the disdain in BF's/Stig's and others tone is... it seems to me they expect women to be honorable. But we're not. We aren't built that way... we are, however, incredibly loyal, and that comes directly from our maternal instinct.
So Burg, doing 'what works,' I would imagine... works because whatever it is you are doing is clearly indicating to a woman that you are either cultivating her loyalty, or you are not. She picks up on it subconsciously. When a woman's sense of loyalty is strong, there isn't much anyone can do to penetrate it. If a man is smart, it does well to actively cultivate it all the time...
When a woman's sense of loyalty is shaken... she will, out of a need to survive, begin looking elsewhere.
When BF says that a woman needs to tend her own fences... to a woman that means that his loyalty to her is in question, and her own loyalty fades... she'll knock her own fence down. If a woman is loyal to her man... she doesn't even NEED a fence... she will have no desire whatsoever to wander anywhere... unless the safety of her child is in question.
A woman may stay with a man out of a sense of duty (especially if children are involved), but that may not mean she is feeling 'loyal' to her man.
A man's honor IS his sense of duty, and that includes taking care of and protecting what he considers 'his.' Building 'loyalty' in a woman is much the same as it is with any animal. But if a man looks to a woman and expects her to act and behave as a man, he's pretty much shooting himself in the foot. If we were built the same way, there would be no need for gender difference.
That doesn't mean that a woman loves her child any more than a man does. It just means that their love springs from different wells. (And really, I just can't think of a single thing that holds all of us in utter awe like a mother's love for her child. It even baffles the angels... LOL)
We don't really have to 'understand' that about one another, but we do have to honor it... and do 'what works.' If it isn't working... then we are not honoring one another... respect fades... loyalty fades... boom. And to me, it IS best to move on... at least in a dating scene. For marriage... I think this very thing (or lack thereof) is probably at the foundation of every troubled relationship... and all kinds of things spring forth from it.
Hmmmm...your bunny is strong and you are vibing lioness so you are contemplating a game of Rogue Reformation.
OH. MY. GOD. I seriously, seriously hope not.
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I call it my Rogue Creation plan. Here is the rough outline:
1) Find man who vibes "nice guy" rather than Wolf but is attractive for other reasons. Example: If I met pre-BB, single version of Chrome- Intelligent, interesting job and I saw him in athletic pants (LOL).
2) Let him play me bunny until he feels secure.
3) Play him monkey until he turns Wolf.
4) Play him cow.
5) Gracefully fall out of the relationship in my zoo keeper uniform.
Welp... that generally sounds like a much more effective plan, and one I shall definitely consider. I've been thinking, though, that my monkey still needs lots more work. But I'd probably... most definitely, very likely, rearrange my animal order. If I let people play with my bunny... I'm letting them 'in' because I've sensed an interest in my loyalty. Generally, bringing that out first sets up false pretenses... and it's generally where both genders get kind of 'lost,' if you ask me.
I'd probably bring out my swan first (and I usually do, actually). The only problem is, I'm on the pond, and the wolves are sitting on the shore, licking their chops...
Hm. This is an interesting discovery for me...
I'd either have to find a male swan, willing to swim out to me... or find another animal...
That leaves my monkey and my lioness. Do you think it possible to combine those two, like you did with your Bunkey?
I really think we need to write that book... what a flippin' HOOT!!!!
LFL Actually I don't see lots of the guys making much progress in their R. Sorry to say that but the bitterness oozes out of their posts sometimes Karen That isn't disrespect LFL as much as it is pure, unbridled pain. All I can say is, yes.
Corri Okay... that's my grand theory for the day. Good theory. I have seen the theory at work.
I really think we need to write that book... what a flippin' HOOT!!!!
(Corri) Women are inherently dishonest because of our maternal instinct.
I agree with most of what you're saying; help me understand. Why does the maternal instinct make you dishonest (I'd use the term "undependable" instead, but I think we're on the same page)? The only thing I can come up with is that your complete and utter commitment to your offspring, whether they exist or not, makes you realize at some level that everything else is relatively unimportant. Honor and dependability are no big deal...you *know* you're a good person because you know in your bones that you'll completely sacrifice yourself for your offspring.
That would explain why single women who are into you are dependable and regular single women are a pain in the a$$. It raises two questions, though.
Why are married women dependable? (I have my suspicions, which don't involve any secret attractions, but I don't want to taint any potential responses.)
If a regular single woman is dependable, does that mean she's actually into you? (That would explain a lot, actually.)
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
She eventually let me know that I could quit telling her I wasn't ready for a full blown R, that she got it and that the repetition was annoying. I should also explain that she never blamed me or said anything was unfair. She was incredibly cool and was almost The Perfect Woman. If she'd thrown a fit at the end I'd have written her off as crazy and that would have been the end of the cleanup. Instead she just said, "I practically love you, you big goof," and explained how we weren't going to be able to be friends.
That said, your point that women are responsible for their own emotions is correct. That's the area wherein lay the SLBs that I mentioned earlier I need to handle. Eventually.
Well, I can't decide if I respect her for being honest or I think she should have behaved in a manner less likely to make you feel guilty. She shouldn't have allowed herself to become emotionally involved given the situation and you shouldn't have allowed yourself to feel guilty given the situation. One way to think about it is that a woman is never going to become strong bunny if there is some guy out there to rescue her every time she vibes weak bunny. OTOH, every woman is going to vibe weak bunny on occasion so it would be a sign of respect if you could empathize without rescuing. I think if you were able to do that it would alleviate your guilt.
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As Corri rather alluded to, the first action appeals to women who want a relationship. The second appeals to women who don't want a relationship (i.e. is counterproductive to their continued not wanting of a relationship).
So it's like one of those puzzles involving people in one village who only tell the truth and people in another village who only lie. I'm too mush-brained at the moment to figure out the answer but I'm sure it's out there.
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Heh. That's shooting fish in a barrel. If you need any help with steps 2 and 3, I can put you in touch with an expert.
Actually, I think it's much more difficult to do if self-aware than any kind of Rogue Reformation plan because I have to maintain my desire in the face of many obstacles until I reach success in Step 3. I hope you are joking about me needing help. I 've been turning nice guys into rogue wolves since the early 1980s. I just didn't know that was what I was doing and therefore I suffered due to ignorance. Poor little monkey Mojo (sniff).
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Otherwise, you're leaving the guy with half a wolf.
I had this exact thought but then I remembered that I usually make it pretty clear to a man just exactly what is turning me on when I'm in strong monkey mode. The guy won't exit the relationship clueless about that. He will only be clueless about what turned him off and caused him to exit. Like he'll see me in the grocery store a month later and he'll be scratching his head and having muddled thoughts along the lines of "Hot. Nice. Me no like??"
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art of me liked it when women were wonderfully mysterious and I just needed to wait until one saw what a great guy I am and blessed me with her company. Finding out a guy can do what works is rather like finding out there's no Santa Claus. Living in reality beats living in fantasy but it's more fun to think of your presents being delivered by an enormous elf in a red suit with flying reindeer than it is to realize your parents bought that stuff at Best Buy. ;\)
LOL- That's almost exactly how I felt when I became more objective about objectification and empathetic to "f*ck and run" etc. I haven't quite got it worked out yet myself (obviously) but I think it probably has something to do with being childlike rather than childish and enjoying being the grownup who dresses up as Santa on occasion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm pretty sure I agree with you. The lioness's primary job is protecting her young but the lioness is the only animal who will honor a contract. Therefore, a man has to make himself vulnerable (not weak!) before a woman will make true contract with him. If a man reveals himself as vulnerable (not weak!)to a woman she will see it as a sign of desire for such contract. In the example BB gave, his honorable verbal statement of no desire for contract should have superseded any signs given otherwise therefore the Court of Woman rules "her bad".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
If I let people play with my bunny... I'm letting them 'in' because I've sensed an interest in my loyalty.
I see letting somebody play with my bunny as more of a desire to gain my trust (not loyalty which would involve the lioness) which absolutely makes sense as a starting place. If I don't let a guy play me bunny before I play him monkey, it's like I'm some random child wandering up to a guy in a grocery store and saying "Will you buy me some candy?" Even if I'm real cute and he would like nothing better than to be the candyman, he might have the tendency to think "What is wrong with this kid? Where are her grown-ups?". (Like a certain good friend who was concerned about my Nancy Drew adventure -lol)
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That leaves my monkey and my lioness. Do you think it possible to combine those two, like you did with your Bunkey?
Of course, my sister and I spotted a prostitute wearing bright, bright red stiletto heel boots today and we agreed that they were very "monkoness" or "lionkey". If you bring out your lioness or cow first, you are in adult mode so you don't need to bring out your bunny before your monkey. Since you don't seem like the brownie-dropping type, the monkey/lioness combo might work.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I want them to succeed.