She's ready to move on

[drz]

Dear All,


As The Clash said...
"Darling you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?"

This is a fascinating thread because it summarises my key issue over the last 15months of hell. Now that I'm more detached I've realised that I'd made two fatal mistakes which had really messed up my mind:

- I assumed my W was the same rational and loving person that I'd originally married
- I could convince her to recommit to us by making changes

Our WASs are nuts and on a serious trip to Planet La La and beyond. No amount of planning/plotting will work because their responses are so irrational. In my opinion, whether they stay or go has limited impact in their delusional state. Therefore any changes you make should be for yourself and your kids. You should not make changes peeking from the corner of your eyes for the WAS's reaction. Detach fully and completely, and take the power out of their hands.

I've decided I can detach (only after 15months of micro-steps forwards followed by huge backslides) whilst living together. I don't need to rock my kids' world and also it gives us the possibility of reconciling. This has only dawned on me now, and I forced myself to face it as the clock struck twelve for 2008. I was all alone on New Years and I thought I need to take back my life.

My humble advice is please focus on yourselves and don't try and second-guess your WASs. Could you have guessed they would do this to your lives? No, then you can't guess how they'll react to any decisions you make now. Each one of has different levels of tolerance and different ways of living life. If you can't detach in the same house then definitely separate. However any M that is heading back to friendship, is moving in the right direction; its just not moving at the speed you want and may not get to the end destination in the time you want.

A few thoughts from "the fence"...it was painful sitting here, but I've got myself a lovely cushion of resolve now and I'm going to live life from here for a little bit and see how far I get.

Good luck to all of you in this impossible conundrum with impossible answers.

Regards,
drz

[Michael Mc C]

Thanks DRZ. I guess that's the point I'm at now, can I become detached enough while sharing the house with my wife?

There are times that I feel I am detached as her actions and general behavior don't affect me in any way. There are other times, however, that I cannot help but wish there was something I could do or say to show her that what she's doing appears so ridiculous to everyone that knows her. I haven't been able to find that full detachment yet. Maybe that comes only after consistently taking small steps over time.

I've been in this for only 4 months, a drop in the bucket compared to others on this board. As "calm" as things are right now I'm sure sometime in the near future things will get shaken up again. Either she'll reconnect with OM, find a new "soulmate", further decline in her childish behavior, etc.

If she moves out I believe I will be able to detach easier but of course not overnight. Her lifestyle and her choices would not be flaunted and my kids and I would be able to begin to pick up the pieces, begin our new routines and move forward with life.

If I can detach enough while she's here, however, then I'll be able to focus more on myself and the kids and she'll see first hand how I am able to live my life and find happiness regardless of her antics. There really isn't anything stopping us (me and the kids) from starting our new routines now and continuing to move forward even if she is here.

It remains a toss-up in my mind. I love this woman, I usually enjoy her company and we have been having some great discussions again (nothing about the marriage). She slept in my bed last night - there was nothing of great importance to that, although she did seek out my feet with hers (not sure if I've posted that before but that was one our 'things'). I'm sure it was just out of habit or comfort, nothing with any real meaning attached.

Some days I'm convinced she has to leave and other days I feel that it would be best to take advantage of what I have now. There is no rush getting her out of here as long as I don't end up feeling like a doormat.

[LL44]

Sharing a bed is an intimate thing for a woman. This is good.

Some days I'm convinced she has to leave and other days I feel that it would be best to take advantage of what I have now. There is no rush getting her out of here as long as I don't end up feeling like a doormat.

Its a fine line, isn't it? Part of me wants H soooo gone, but then I think how it might push us further away. Plus, with H here, the kids are here full time. I am not ready for that part of a separation, that's for sure.

can I become detached enough while sharing the house with my wife?

I worry about this too. But I think it depends on how much time you are together in the house, what she witnesses (moping around, or positive behavior, anger or peace...) and how you feel overall.

[drz]

I've also tried to move the focus away from myself and look at my W in a more detached manner. She looks physically drained and mentally confused, and of course in flashes of anger will blame me as the cause. She has a real roller-coaster of emotions, and if I really step back I can see the hell she's going through. Then my love and compassion kick-in...I think this is a woman who gave me the best years of her life (most of her 20s and 30s), she's in trouble and would never have planned to be here, and I need to support her as much as I can. This ability to see the WAS's struggle only comes through time and detachment. Please do not be a doormat (that's not very attractive to anyone), but see how far you can help your spouse on their journey. When we are hurt, and blaming our WASs (just like they blame us), its tough to see some aspects of the other side. I'm not condoning their crazy behaviour, and not excusing affairs, I'm just suggesting a little understanding gives perspective.

Michael, only you can decide what's best, and only you know how you feel about your W. But I'd say that 4 mths (4mths out of 20yrs together is a drop in the ocean) and feet-searching in bed is good. Obviously things can deteriorate and she can slide into oblivion, but I'd say what's the hurry. Mentally you've already proven that you are ready to press the eject button, and so why not focus your energies on detaching and GALling for a little while longer? Separation will be physically, emotionally, and probably financially exhausting. My view (and please note I'm no expert, and I'm no therapist...I'm just a guy who's gone through his nightmare and hopes all troubled long-term Ms can be rekindled) would be life's a marathon and not a sprint. Give it a little longer and see what happens. The key though is don't hang in limbo whilst you give a little more time, GAL like crazy and make the most of your life and kids. I pray your W wakes up in time before you reach your limit, and say enough.

Good luck, and live like the noble, strong and honourable man that you are.

Regards,
drz

[Michael Mc C]

Wow drz, ever think about writing? Just kidding, I've been reading your sitch...

I agree with you lwb, there was a time a few weeks ago that she would NEVER have thought about sleeping in that bed, with or without me. I think it was a big step for her even though I'm sure she feels I'm going to read a lot into it. My job now is to do exactly the opposite. No comments, no questions if she moves back to the couch, no worrying about what's on her mind.

The time with the kids is a big concern for me as well although they would end up spending a majority of their time here anyway. Still I don't look forward to ever having them staying somewhere else because it's not "my" day to have them.

I have decided that I am in no rush for any major decisions. There are certain things that I know I will simply not be able to tolerate while she's here. Unless those things occur, there is no need for me to force any movement.

A little journaling:

I have had such an upbeat attitude since the new year began. I'm not sure if it's because we made it through the holidays mostly unscathed or if it's my new focus on GAL. My mood has at times conflicted with hers and while I hate to see her miserable, I know that she hasn't been able to bring me down.

She has, unfortunately, become lazier than usual. She claims it's because she's on her feet all day at work but there is very little help with the house.

I, on the other hand, have been doing a bang-up job keeping up with the laundry (amazing what 3 kids can generate), keeping the kitchen 1 notch below immaculate and have successfully (finally) enlisted the kids to start pulling their own weight.

I want to say something to her about this. I understand that at times she's "not here" but come on, she still lives here and she has to take part in the chores just like I do AND just like the kids do.

I work from home, she does not. It's easy for me to keep up with the house during a quick break or during lunch. However, when I wasn't working at home and she was a SAHM, she would bitch me out (after it stewed for months) about not getting more help. I need to take the proper approach about this and tell her that I can't do it alone in a calm and confident way. I know I have held off saying much because things are 'calm' at the moment. It's time, however, to remove some of the comfort and shake it up a just a little bit.

Quick story about the last 'housework' discussion we had (New Year's Eve):

My kids and I busted our humps preparing for our party. My sister came over and spent an hour cleaning up the kids playroom. When my wife came home D11 said "are you going to come help us in the playroom?" W said "I just got home from work, I'm not cleaning anything."

I was livid. I looked at her and said "No cleaning at all?" She replied with "I've been on my feet all day, I want some coffee and I need to relax."

I let it go for about 20 minutes, calmed myself down and pulled her into the bedroom. I reminded her that when I was working out of the home that if I ever came home, especially on the night of a party when the rest of the family had been working their asses off, and said I wasn't going to pitch in, she would have ripped my throat out.

She reminded me that it was different since I work at a desk. Bah!

My response to this was "Okay, so come home and say that once you have your coffee you'd like to help out but your feet are really tired. 'Is there anything I can do to help while keeping off my feet?'"

She agreed that it was probably the better thing to do and apologized (the apology was that of a chastised child but I accepted it anyway).

Since she works in retail her weekend (this week) occurred on Wednesday and Thursday. She spent most of the days with D11 watching movies (D11 was sick). However NOTHING was done as far as dishes or laundry. She simply doesn't think like she used to. I need to take the same approach that I did on NYE and tell her that some help is expected.

Funny enough, she told friends and family back in December (when I was 'forcing' her out of the house if she went to meet OM) that I would never be able to handle it. Guess what honey, I'm handling the house, the pets, the finances, 3 kids and, apparently, a 37 year old teenager.

[saffie]

An inability to motivate one's self and do things around the home is probably tied in with feeling low and possibly depression. A common symptom of depression is not having the energy to do things. I just mention this in case you want to take that into account when tackling your W on this area. (Also she may just be plain shattered with having the new job - it is bound to be mentally AND physically tiring in the beginning.

Also, on a personal note, I know that when I am working through emotional issues I am often less productive with the physical side of domestic life etc but when I get a lot done on the domestic side of things I somehow forget to focus on seeing to my emotional issues - I am probably a terrible multi tasker for a female though!!!! My H has started to recognise this pattern t and knows that it goes in stages and seems to be a little bit out of my control so he is sympathetic to it - up to a point.

Good luck on your discussion with your W!!

[Dr LOve]

Yo MCc,

Funny thing about Housework, MONTHS ago when this first started I did EVERYTHING. Washed Dishes, vacuumed, cleaned house, washed her car, all of the yard work and washed OUR clothes. (Didn’t mind this it was the only time I saw her panties )
Anyway At the time I was dirt, I mean W would not even want to be in the same room with me. We went out on one "date" and it was like going out it your X wife that remarried. Anyway this was the start of my detaching. I cut off a majority of the "help" (that I didn't consider help I thought it was a shared responsibility). Even though I did not do it for approval (at least not consciously) I NEVER got a thank you. Anyway Instead of doing things I started to wait to be asked or I would ask if she needed help. This has been going on for 7 months now. (Still have not washed her car).

Last weekend I made some beef jerky and W told me that she would clean up my mess. WHAT?? She would not lift a finger to help me before after all I was the one in the way of her and her married lover from being together........ I said sure thanks.... Then yesterday W was out and the dishes in the dishwasher were clean so I put them away.... When W came home she opened up the washer and said "Oh you put the dishes away already?" I said "Ya" she said "thanks".
I don't know if you received my E-mail but you and I have allot in common. I know it is hard. It's been 9 months since I discovered the A. It's been 8 1/2 months since I had enough evidence (phone longs, addresses of his work and home. Addresses of his "hang outs' Naked pictures of him and W that I could have used to destroy his life.
BUT............ like drz and myself have said......We have plenty of time...I could have ended MY misery months ago. My son and family would still be hurting but mine would have been over. But I waited. And things are 100% better now. They are not right yet but they are allot better. You can file anytime. It's like what I used to tell my daughters. You can do ANYTHING you want. Get pregnant, Rob a bank, have an affair..... But once you do it there is no turning back. I still have the option of ruining the OM and ending my marriage. I will ALWAYS have that option until I use it.
You will know when it is time. The closer I get to my Vegas get away to close my W seems to be getting to me. Why??? I don't know, I don't care. Maybe she thinks I am going to see somebody. Am I? I don't know that option is open. Don't rush the Affair did not happen over night. (Well it may have happened overnight but what I mean is that what lead up to it didn't. So the road back won't happen over night either .


Husband

[Michael Mc C]

Son of a...

The day started off great (guess you know how this going to end up). W did not have to go to work until noon today and we were having a really friendly morning. Talking, joking and playing music.

W called me on her way to work and told me to keep dinner plans open. Little background: Yesterday we discussed a bar/restaurant her parents used to take her and her brother to when they were very young and I told her that it sounded like something we should try to do. So she called her brother on the way into work to see if he wanted to meet us there with his GF. So that was the plan. Me, W, 3 kids, BIL and his GF.

We had a really good time at dinner, having some drinks and playing pool. Wasn't a late night but was great going out as a family again.

On the way home all was still feeling good. I mentioned that S8's bed was still in disrepair and she said:

"That's okay, he can sleep in D11 and D13's room... or with you."

So stupid! It's not that I thought things were 'fixed' and I certainly didn't expect her to spend another night in the bed with me (that was a one time thing, for now). Still, just to have her throw it out there like a reminder that we were NOT going to share the room tonight.

I feel sometimes that she sabotages any chances we have of having fun together. We have a good time and then she has to pull the rug out from under me. She didn't have to say that, I know she's sleeping on the couch. It's as if she's saying 'regardless of the fun I have had with you today, you need to remember that I want a D'

And what really sucks is that it bothered me.

[Michael Mc C]

Let me preface this with "I've had a few drinks" Go grab a cup of coffee and a donut, I may be a while... Forgive any rambling.

Okay, so an update to the above post. I started using that wonderful tool known as hindsight, trying to see if maybe something I said or did during the evening could have prompted my wife's sudden need to remind me of the sh}t-storm we're in. I came up with something.

On our way home from the Bar/Restaurant, she mentioned that she received a text message from a girlfriend last night but couldn't remember if she replied or not (she had a few glasses of wine...) D13 told her to check the 'sent' list and W said "no, I delete everything". D13 asked why she deletes all her messages and Einstein (me) said:

"Mommy has to cover her tracks"

That didn't go over so well but I thought we had recovered from it through a quick discussion explaining that I meant nothing by it.

By the way, the Christmas Eve blow up was because of a similar comment which WAS malicious. Tonight's comment, however, was not. I simply meant that she didn't want any evidence of her drunken discussions with her drunk girl friends. I was picking at her playfully, not with malice.

So here I am thinking that I screwed up the evening. So what am I going to do? Do I let it slide or do I try to find out if I pissed her off?

I decided that I need to know if something I said has lead to her change in mood. I can't help it. I want to be communicating with this woman and I want her to communicate with me. If I upset her I want to know. I NEED to know that if I'm making comments that can be misconstrued, maybe I need to change my delivery OR maybe she needs to lighten up.

I asked her as she was going to bed if I said or did anything tonight to upset her because there was a definite shift in her behavior (I didn't word it this way of course). She told me that I did nothing, in fact she had a great time and "thank you".

Hmm. Being me, I can't leave well enough alone. She was making the 'bed' (the couch) and I said "I have one more question for you."

Me: Are you sleeping out here for me or for you? <regardless of what my other posts have implied, this actually is a very important thing to me. not for intimacy, but for sensibility. it just doesn't make sense to me!>
She: Both, I guess
Me: It's completely unnecessary. <I know, stupid> Nothing has changed in what you've been saying since before Thanksgiving and now. It makes no sense for you to sleep out here.
She: <Crying suddenly> I can't talk about this.

Although it's good to see her showing some emotion again, I certainly didn't want this. I love this woman so damn much that it kills me to see her going through this. I cannot, and will not, do anything to intervene or to try to make things better. The only thing I could do is possibly supoort her when she asks for it. This is completely opposite of the way I was feeling earlier this week but regardless of what has happened, I understand WHY it has happened. I know what goes on in the brain on a metaphysical level.

My wife is NOT an alien. My wife is a wonderful woman, a great mother and hell of a companion. I wouldn't be doing this if she wasn't. WE got lost. WE didn't take the steps to ensure that we could keep this going. I am busting my ass to get us to a point where we have a chance to do this right.

I look at her and I wish I could despise her. I found myself trying to detach by thinking about all the lies and the betrayal. All it did was bring back pain. It did not give me detachment. It brought me agony to see what WE have allowed to happen.

I have always been her rock. It is so damn hard not to be that now. I can hear all the db'ers screaming at me saying "NO. IT'S NOT YOUR JOB ANYMORE!" I know. But to see the woman I love in such a state of confusion and pain is almost too much to bear.

This will pass. We were here back in November when OM was gone for about 2 or 3 weeks. The pattern is repeating itself. I need to back off, detach, let her work through this.

Whew.

Okay, real quick update on me. I have continued to go to the gym - really have to work on my Pecs and Biceps (everything else is wonderful LOL). I've also been back into wood-working (that was a surprise GAL as I didn't really notice I had let it slide). Anyway, after the gym the other night I stopped at a local purveyor of beers and hot wings, delivered by scantily clad women... all the Americans at least know Hoo I'm talking about. Anyway, a couple of girls on the customer side of the bar (and I mean 'girls', I'm 39) paid WAY too much attention to me. Talk about a PMA boost! Must have been all the testosterone from working out.

I couldn't even fathom a new relationship right now but there is something about being noticed that really picks you up! My neighbor (former close friend of my wife) asked me last night if I thought I could fake a love interest to make my wife realize what she was about to lose. My answer to that was "I don't think I need to fake it. If I thought that would help my situation, I KNOW I could find one."

Cocky? Yes.
Healthy? No.

One last comment: D8's teacher is a former Hooters waitress. Her name was mentioned by my waitress the other night. Too funny! I said "Does she still work here?" My waitress said "No, she left months ago because she got a job as a teacher. Do you know her?"

I said "Yep, she's my son's 3rd grade teacher."

She got this look on her face, like the CEO of Hooters was watching her, and whispered "You're not even supposed to know that she EVER worked here."

Gotta love the small towns!

[Dr LOve]

MCC,

Ok Guy this is comming from somebody that has been there / done that. and a person that engages his mouth before his brain alot..

"That's okay, he can sleep in D11 and D13's room... or with you."

Ok let it go. I think you are at the phase of talking things too personal. I did this also. I jumped the gun on alot of things. you need to get to the point of just saying "ok" and let it go.I know it is hard. I took things like W making son breakfast for son and not me PERSONAL, I too W dumping my clothes on the bed and not folding them PERSONAL. ButI learned to just let it go becase if I didn't my attatude changed and then I gave her fuel to not want to be around me.

D13 asked why she deletes all her messages and Einstein (me) said:

"Mommy has to cover her tracks"

Your said it before I did STUPID.... You (like me) need to chose your words wisely.
I can't tell you how may times I wanted to say "why don't you ask OM to fix the sink" or "I bet OM will be a great father" or "Maybe I should cheat on you like OM is cheating on his wife"

Agian I know this is hard. We were /are hurt. We want to lash out at something but this will only push things farther away. and last but not least....

Hmm. Being me, I can't leave well enough alone. She was making the 'bed' (the couch) and I said "I have one more question for you."

NO No NO...

I have made mistakes too I have learned to just move on. You bring things up and it just makes them BIGGER MISTAKES. I does not sound like you have detached far enough yet. you seem to be doing things to please her still not make things better. If you do things just to please her how long can you keep it up before you revert back to being yourself?
Change for YOU. Your Wife had a plesent memory of the evening and you just brought back the bad memories for her to think about all night, instead of the Good " she had a great time and "thank you"." Memory to sleep on.


so to recap:

1. Don't take it personal. this just changes your PMA
2. Think BEFORE you speak (say it to yourself and think how it sounds to you. Sarcastic? Mean?, Hurtfull?, PISSED?
3. DO NOT RE CHARGE mistakes,Don't Bring them back to life. let them die. Move on.

Husband