Well, W is in the mode of 'sometimes two people grow separately' and is a little ambivalent. I know the love is there, the problem is that the attraction has faded again because I have faded again.
I don't want to Db to save this marriage. I just want to 'be happy' and if by doing that the marriage works then great. I guess I don't want to fear the possible outcome of us no longer being together. I guess if there's one thing I have learned is that feelings change, and what is true today is not true tomorrow.
We did some things together today, went to a 'spiritual' church she likes (and I kind of like also) and had a nice lunch. It's obvious she is unsure of what to trust, because she references how I need to let her 'do things for me' to love me. She tells me things she needs me to do to make her feel cared for and safe.
Then she also references the 'spiritual growth' that she really needs in her life, and how it may just be that we're not going to be doing that together. I can see how she feels that. It's ambivalence again but leaning towards loving me.
Last night she told me about a fellow she had met at the 4 day massage seminar she went to in early December, and that he had been really complimentary to her every day and was she 'a bad person' for feeling attracted to him. She didn't call him, but sent him a gift for xmas (an inexepensive hat) because she felt he had been so good for her emotionally, and they had made a connection of some type. He sent her a nice thank you card and that's it. She showed it to me, it was polite and didn't ask to hear back from her at all. So he seems like a decent guy who's not looking for anything from her.
There are no phone calls, no e-mails. That's it.
She seemed to REALLY want me to know that 'nothing happened' and I know that's true. She's just confused because she's not getting the things she needs from me right now and when someone else fills that need for complements and validation she almost mistakes it for 'love'.
She got it on her own though, which I guess is good. But it's confusing her and she's really questioning our relationship again.
After this conversation (at 1 am) we ML and it was really a good emotional connection.
I do not want to focus on her, or 'saving anything'. I want to not feel that I 'need' her I just want to feel better again.
I will do what I should be doing to give her the things she needs to feel good in our relationship - I know I've let that go too long. I hope it helps because I still think we're pretty good together if we can only both be at the same emotional and spiritual place, at the same time.
I still get this anxiety. The change in diet seems to have some effect as well as the B vitamins, magnesium, chromium and making sure I eat smaller meals more often.
Like I said, DB'ing in the past for HER was bad for ME. I'm focused on fixing me because in the end, that's all I have.
Is this the thread that the thread thread was refering to????
I'm no expert by any stretch but I think that focusing on you and making the changes in yourself that you know are good for you may very well prove positive for the relationship with your wife. It is hard to try to make someone else happy when you aren't truly happy with yourself( that much I am an expert on).
Hmmm... don't know what to say about the situation with the "friend" from the massage seminar..... and the gift giving most certainly wouldn't sit well with me. But I admire the way you handled it.... you seem very willing to really hear her and try to understand ....
Hang in there Frank.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
I often find myself being really unhappy about that, because I keep thinking that she SHOULD do something, put some kind of energy into me. She does that for everyone else.
before my H left in 05 I thought, to the best of my ability, that I was supportive, that I was helping by leaving him alone in the afternoons and take the kids out so he can have some quiet time (much later during C he told me I made it worse by leaving him alone), by encouraging him to pray (by then he'd lost his religion and it just made him angry) , by suggesting he'd take a sick day when he was feeling ill (it infuriated him that I would suggest he was too weak to keep on going), etc. Perhaps she does not know how to support you the way you need her to, and perhaps you don't really know how you want her to support you either, but my point is, that it might not be that she doesn't *want* to, is that she does not know how.
Originally Posted By: frank_D
She feels that she can't do anything to help 'fix me' because that is my responsibility.
In a way she is right, I carried my M on my shoulders while my H wallowed in misery and seeked an alternative cure for his depression (ow). I was doing all I could, but things where never right because at some point he just looked for band aids instead of taking a hard look at himself and treat whatever was ailing him. Only now does he realize that he was fooling himself. He needed to make that decision, my months of support did little/nothing to change how he was feeling.
I do see your point though, you do want to feel she'll be there for you. It is a hard balancing act to decide wether one should be "rescuing" a spouse (another can of worms) or let them "buckle up" and decide to face their issues on their own.
My H is taking St. Johns Wort, I've been told by a psychologist friend that it is a mood enhancer and it is prescribed in Europe for depression (my H also suffered anxiety attacks these past weeks). I'm aware you are already taking a few other supplements, but I thought I'd throw that suggesting your way. If you decide to get it, get the one that is pure (no other herbs) 300mg 3x a day, and to take it a break off it every 4mths or so.
I'm not a regular poster on your threads, but I can recognize a good man when I see one, you are having your deserved "time out" from rescuing W and others, we all need to defuse from time to time. A courageous man is not the one who marches into battle without fear, is the one who, feeling fear, marches into battle.
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
I'll have my prayer warriors pray for you and your W.
Just a couple of quick notes:
1) My sister and two of my kids get hypoglycemic. The kids get grumpy beyond belief, almost impossible to communicate with them. When that happens I ask them when they last ate and what they had. Inevitably they haven't eaten for hours. So we just about have to force them to eat something. They'll literally be crying and eating, but after about 10 minutes they turn back into the sweet angels that we've come to love and skip happily off into the flower patch once again. It's like a diabetic having low blood sugar.
2) All things considered, if you really think that getting a D is necessary for YOU to become happy, then go for it. Don't let anyone stop you.
3) Get physically fit. Strong body, strong mind. You don't have to be a total jock, just get your body moving, heart rate up doing something. It's an amazing stress reliever. Yes sex counts if you can keep it up for an hour or so at a time.
4) Don't fall into the trap of judging your W, or passing responsiblity for your miserable condition on to her. Pray constantly, eat healthy foods, and exercise regularly.
God Bless you my brother. You've helped a lot of people on this board and it's time you helped yourself. You may think you're beaten, weak, can't go on, but just take things one step at a time. Stay in the moment.
God Bless You,
COG
My Story http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...&Number=660444&page=2#Post660444
I couldn't just shut off my feelings, but I could vent here and pretend I was 'ok' when I was around W or the Kids. Just focused on being 'perfect' and all the things I needed to be so that we could go through this and hopefully keep the family together.
The OM, the 'I want a divorce', all the pain. Absorb it, keep going. Be strong. That's how I lived my entire life, the abusive childhood, the bad business partners. Absorb it, be strong.
And it worked. It's been about 18 months since we rebuilt our marriage and we're still together. My W has grown immensely, she is past the need to run away, she is strong. I'm proud of her.
She is past the need to 'run away'. Instead they call it "moving forward with your spiritual growth instead of being stifled in a negative relationship because one partner is emotionally 'stuck'".
I will try my best to explain where I am at and how I got here. In my previous thread I talked about how after DB'ing 'worked' I felt kind of lost, drained and empty. I still had an enormous amount of pressure on me because of work that didn't get done while I was not functional. Since my W was 're-integrating' into the family I let her be 'just mom' for a while instead of pushing her to make her massage business work better to help make up for the financials.
A series of really bad business situations killed our cash flow, but I had savings and credit and kept us going. But about a year ago September I just started to find myself mired in anxiety and fear.
I tried to explain to my W how I felt so empty, used up. I told her that before her affair I was already beat (as she knew) and I found myself having to pick myself up somehow in order to heal HER and keep the kids feeling safe. I told her I really needed support and she said she would be 'supportive'.
I had a lot of problems and the daily inability to focus wasn't helping. The anxiety was killing me. I would have a drink in the evenings to calm it down. Eventually that became a problem.
Many months have gone by where I've tried to tell her I really really need her to help me, and why can't she help me but she can help other people? She says she can't because it's too personal.
I can understand that. So her position has been 'suggesting' things to me to try, or if I have a really bad emotional episode, then drink, then feel these incredibly intense anxiety feelings she withdraws.
Of course this is my perspective. Hers is that she has been giving me suggestions but I won't do them, so she is allowing me the time to figure out what I want and how to heal myself.
She says she has 'tried to help'. I made the mistake of saying to her once 'but would you do whatever it takes' and compared the situation to one 25 years ago in which an old girlfriend really kicked my butt and got me to wake up from my wallowing.
So, her 'support' has consisted of 'you better get some help' or 'you need to stop doing this' and similar verbal actions. She kept telling me she made a commitment to staying with me no matter what, and helping me through this emotional mess I was in. She says she has learned her lesson that sometimes relationships are tough and you have to stick through really hard parts because of your commitment. That you can't run away.
Until December. She told me 6 weeks ago that she was having a hard time, that she felt like she wasn't growing, that we were financially unsafe, she couldn't live like this and that she needed to honor her commitment to herself to 'grow spiritually', but it seemed to be in conflict with her commitment to me because I wasn't growing, I was stuck.
I know I wasn't ok, I wasn't being there for her. I was hurt and angry a lot. But I had an expectation that since I had 'fixed' her she should do everything to fix me now.
she went away the first week in December to one of her massage teaching retreats and called me every day, letting me know I was her 'rock', she loved me, she missed me, etc.
She comes back and I'm not in a good place but she needs to ML and we do and it's great. I'm still stuck though.
She and my D17 go away for a week on a trip at the end of December and she calls me every day, tells me she misses me and loves me. I can tell she means it.
I already covered her 'return' in my last thread. She was tired and needy, but then turned to unhappy and needing to 'grow spiritually'.
She's been reading 'Gary Zukav: Soul Stories' which is a very good book. However, one of the chapters deals with 'spiritual Partners'. It's point is that as long as two people are in a relationship and they are both growing as individuals, meaning they are each pursuing their dreams and interests then they are 'spiritual partners'. Sometimes one or the other will get stuck for a while but that's ok. But, if one stays stuck so long that the other can't do the things they need to find their happiness then it's necessary to 'let them go'.
She tells me that now she needs to 'grow her business' and start traveling and teaching. She says she hasn't done either because she was ashamed of what happened with the affair with the guy she met at the retreat and didn't want me to be worried. But now she says she 'feels stifled' and that she has accepted that she may have to let me go so she can do these things.
Basically she has said that she is going to pursue her dreams spiritual growth, and not be concerned about whether or not she is with me, that it's now 'ok for her' to let me go because she's no longer afraid to be on her own. She says she doesn't 'see me changing or us doing this together' but whatever does happen will be a 'bonus'.
She says we are still in a 'relationship' and she doesn't want to divorce or move out or anything. She wants to still sleep together and be affectionate and she'll keep me 'up to date' on her feelings if they change. In other words, limbo.
She is occasionally affectionate, says 'I love you' sometimes. But right now she seems to be in her 'happy fog' where all that matters is the things she's working on doing 'for herself'. I wish she had gotten to this place 3 months ago - but had decided to work WITH me to help me through my stuff.
I was talking to Spitfire today about people who have been in my life, in business and personal, and how everyone looks at me as 'invincible' in some ways. But when I'm not strong, I hide it or if I do share it, the people who I've 'rescued' don't understand. As she said "you rescue these people who never get it".
It's almost always one sided in that when they need you, you'll do whatever research it takes and summon all your strength to find a way to help them.
But, when you need help, you intimidate them so they can't (or won't) do 'whatever it takes'.
In the end, the only one who can 'rescue' you is you. You can reach out for support and help but you're the one who knows how to rescue people in need. Rescue yourself.
Your wife is not that person, she never was."
So, here I am again. I used up what I had and found myself down the hole. I didn't rescue myself and made all the same mistakes. I thought my W would rescue me since I had given her all my strength. I was wrong. She has the strength to take care of herself without running to an OM, but not to take care of me when I am down.
I guess the positive is that her current actions have gotten me to take action and try to find out what is wrong with me.
The thing is I just don't know what to do about her. I don't want to get hurt again, and I realize now that she doesn't need to be rescued this time - I do. It's just hard to decide if I should just end our relationship before she does or I should believe, as Spitfire seems to, that she doesn't really want to leave, she just wants things to change and she sees that her only choice is to work on herself and her own needs.
It seems like the best thing for me to do is put energy into myself, and continue to be kind and loving but keep my expectations for the future in check.
I don't want to put any more 'work' into DB'ing. It's not the problem any more, the problem is me and how I feel.
what helps me get through this stuff is to take out all the emotion, and look at the facts.
the "In sickness and in health" vow, only applys if she is the one sick, and you had better remain healthy.
you keep the cash flowing, or she won't feel safe.
it's ok for her to tell you she feels atraction to another, because you happen to be empty, spending years "fixing" her. after all, affairs don't drain your soul, stressing about your financial well being, it's a breeze.
so, in her eye's, you can't show any cracks in the armour, just keep being the money machine, validate her every thought and action, compliment her from sun up to sundown.
sounds like an equal partnership.
after years of being a gaurdian, you lose yourself. Frank, you're obviously lost. you have that incredible pain inside, and you can't quite put your finger on it, can't figure out how to be whole again.
I've been in shoe's similar to yours.
I do know that you can't find your way out when you keep getting pulled back in.
the simple fact is, you need time and space to heal and recharge. time without additional drama and unneccessary stresses. I'm trying to do this now, I don't have the answer yet, but it took 25 years for me to get here, probably will take some time to get out. But I do know that if someone is going to come along for the ride, they should be supportive, and non judgmental.
so, in her eye's, you can't show any cracks in the armour, just keep being the money machine, validate her every thought and action, compliment her from sun up to sundown.
sounds like an equal partnership.
You're being too harsh on her. I've been down and out in a similar way as AmyC's husband. Which is why I relate to him. But he has AmyC and I have the damaged little girl who, while she has grown some from the last event, is still not a person who could 'cover my back'. She just isn't. Some people are like that.
Quote:
the simple fact is, you need time and space to heal and recharge. time without additional drama and unneccessary stresses. I'm trying to do this now, I don't have the answer yet, but it took 25 years for me to get here, probably will take some time to get out. But I do know that if someone is going to come along for the ride, they should be supportive, and non judgmental.
I agree. It's the definition of 'supportive' that is the problem here. In her vision she has been supportive the way most women are - they stand back and let their men 'work it out' and take whatever happens for as long as they can until they see no more 'hope' for change and get tired of the negativity and drama.
I have NOT been easy to live with for the past year. I can't blame her for that. The only thing that angers me is that she KNOWS what I went through, I was very CLEAR that I was burned out, thrashed, whatever and that all the old issues we not resolved because I used all the energy I had just to heal HER.
She knows this. She feels that we shouldn't be 'rescuers' any more but should be able to deal with our selves. I guess I might say that she thinks that 'she' has brown and gotten to a more stable state now and doesn't understand what is taking me so long to do the same thing.
I'm a complex person. On the one hand I can 'see' other peoples hurt and needs, and can see the solution. On the other hand I have my own hurt and needs and get stuck in the problem.
I thin what really bothers me is that in some way I feel like I have been testing her, to see if she can really come to the plate and be there for me, so whatever it takes to carry some of the load, to carry me a little. And she hasn't. Instead, she's let it get to the place where sh has to 'shock' me so that I have no choice. The thing is, I have been saying to her over the past 2-3 months that I am just sick and tired of feeling this way and that I am trying to figure out how to get out of this. That I can't do this any more.
So, I'm kind of where I was 2 years ago except that she isn't in an affair, isn't totally crazy and is still being distant, but loosely connected. I think she's just afraid.
So, I really think that to the extent that I can fix what's inside ME without having any need for the outcome between she and I to be anything in particular, then I'll be ok. If I try to DB or whatever to 'fix' our relationship then I'm stealing energy from me that I desperately need. and at some point when I'm strong again - for good - I'm going to have to address this with her.
after years of being a guardian, you lose yourself. Frank, you're obviously lost. you have that incredible pain inside, and you can't quite put your finger on it, can't figure out how to be whole again.
I had to think about this again. 'being a guardian'. In my history that's what I've done for MANY people, not just my wife. I could make a list of those I helped through hard times, through their careers, through other difficult things. I guess I never thought about it that way but yes, I have been a 'guardian' for YEARS and not just for my Wife.
Even when my life is at it's darkest I still somehow keep doing it. And it was the 'being a guardian' that caused my downfall years ago when I sold my company and the new management made it unbearable for my staff of young, dedicated people to stay. That was the proverbial 'straw that broke the camels back' for me. I couldn't take the shame and guilt that I had let them down.
And since then I've been struggling to re-join the world again. I was talking to my partner in our telecom business which has been hurting for the past year and told him that I 'really needed a win' after that long period of feeling lost. I told him I'm really not functional right now because we're losing and I'm just beat.
I need to change this outlook. The exercise, the change in my diet and the supplements seem to be helping. The anxiety periods are lasting for shorter periods.
Still, I need to forgive myself for not always being the perfect 'guardian'.
I don't think I posted this story but it seems relevant now:
I lived with my Grandparents from about 10-17 years old. My Grandmother was crippled due to a stroke and she was thin, frail, walked with a cane and was paralyzed on her right side. She was hard to understand when she spoke and was frustrated and angry. She took it out on me all the time, and I was her 'caretaker' when I was home. I wasn't allowed to have friends over, or do anything after school or on weekends. Just be there.
When I was 17 and a senior in high school my dad got married again so I went to live with him and his new wife. What a change, to not have to be 'locked up' all the time. He didn't really want me around so I spent a lot of time with friends and stuff.
I rarely visited my grandmother.
That fall I went to college (a whole 'nother amazing story there, I never thought I would go) and when I came back from Xmas break 2 days before xmas, my grandmother died. I was staying at my dad's and the way I found out was his sister called looking for him, and he wasn't there of course. She asked me if I knew where he was and of course I had no idea, maybe he was at work?
She says "don't you know what happened?" and I said "no" so she says quite matter of factly "Oh, your grandmother died last night".
That was it. She said she had to go to try to find him since he was working on the funeral arrangements.
A couple days later I went to the funeral. Here I was at 18, never been to a funeral and hadn't seen her in months. I went to the casket and just lost it, sobbing and shaking. standing there by myself. after a couple minutes one of my UNCLES comes up to me and says "It's ok, I know ow you feel" and helps me walk away. I remember seeing my Dad there.
I remember someone saying "She's the only mother he ever knew".
That wasn't what I was thinking though. I was thinking that here I was, the smartest person in my family, the one with the most capability to be a 'guardian' of her and who was her caretaker for so many years, the one with all the 'powers' for healing and making her laugh and being her whipping boy so she could get out her frustrations. Here I was with all this, and I wasn't there to save her when she needed me.
If only I had been her, I would have known what to do. Instead she was stuck with inferior people around her who were ignorant.
$10,000 worth of counseling later and I'm still a mess because I've found myself repeating the 'guardian' role, I guess so I can make up for my biggest 'mistake' in my life.
After the crash in my life 10 years ago when I sold the company I went in the opposite direction - little contact with very many people, never volunteering to help anyone, medicating so I don't have to feel the hurt,. the guilt of letting people down who I was 'guarding'.
I think that's where I've been stuck. Fear of making a mistake again. Even on this board I'm very careful when I post. and when someone is adamant that I'm 'wrong' it really bothers me because I'm afraid I may have hurt someone.
Thanks Ford, I think you opened a door for me. It isn't that I didn't 'know' these things about myself, it's that I don't know what to DO about them.
