Stig I agree the sexual affirmations are helpful but not when you are living like this:
Karen
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I have given sexual affirmations and from what I can tell I think he sees them as false praise that I give in order to get more out of him or something. Or they are an expression of the alien that I am (an HD female). There has been nothing to affirm including kisses, but pats, flirting etc... in so long that unless I push myself on him all I can sexually affirm at the moment is his skill in putting up Christmas decorations, doing homework with the kids etc... I do affirm those things - very frequently, appropriate thanks and so on. I just don't say, "Gee H, when you mash those potatoes it makes me hot."
(((Karen))))) Not even kissing? I just don't understand how your H is not questioning the damage this is doing to the M. No sex in year? I don't blame you one bit for wanting to throw a hissy fit. I do them all too well. I still think you should just tell H you feel unloved without sexual intimacy. That all the christmas decorations and mashed potatoes are not making you feel Love. I'm assuming your H wants you to feel love for him and vice versa. Maybe he just doesn't get the importance of the sex - love connection. I know my H didn't. And it wasn't until he knew I could fall in love with someone else that he said "oh sh!t, I better figure this out."
Doesn't mean you're not human and don't have an ultimate dealbreaker. I think everyone should sit down and figure out what that is if they don't already know. That is your line in the sand. It's kind of a reassuring end point to let you know you won't be forever swirling in a stressful unknown limbo.
Guess what my new one is? LMAO You cheat on me once, you are out ... the ... door. No passing Go, no collecting $100
I think you are being a little naive here Stig. I've said this before about BF and Corri I think. This severe approach, when it comes to M, is not realistic. The fact of the matter is M is F-ing hard. The majority of men and probably women today will go outside their M to meet some physical and emotional needs. They will sometimes even leave you (personal experience there). Do you think the LFL's, or the IC's, or whoever else, expected to be living this kind of M? No. Would we be here today trying to make our M better than ever if we decided "well, that's a dealbreaker, sorry, the M is done." And believe me, I thought like you, as I think most people do when they start a R/M. "I'd never take him back if he left." or "I'd never forgive her if she cheats." But people do and they can come out stronger. The choice is deal with the problems in your M or drop every R/M that comes into trouble. That's a lot of R/M's to go through in one lifetime I'd say. So ultimate dealbreakers? boundaries? I just dunno anymore...
(LFL) I think you are being a little naive here Stig.
Gawd, I hope not. He's lived it once. I wouldn't think there's a whole lot of room left for naivete.
This severe approach, when it comes to M, is not realistic.
What do you mean by "realistic"? It seems you mean that it's not realistic if the aim is to save the M. If that's the case, then you're correct by definition but you haven't really said anything. What Stig said, and what I personally subscribe to as well, is that if she cheats once, she's out. Saving the M is no longer the goal.
The fact of the matter is M is F-ing hard.
I'm sure everyone here agrees.
The majority of men and probably women today will go outside their M to meet some physical and emotional needs. They will sometimes even leave you (personal experience there).
If I end up married again and my wife goes outside the M to meet some physical needs, then she stays outside. It's as simple as that. In and of itself, that's realistic.
Going outside to meet emotional needs...it depends. I'd need some examples.
Do you think the LFL's, or the IC's, or whoever else, expected to be living this kind of M?
No more than the Stig's, the blackfoot's, the Corri's and/or the Burgbud's expected to be living their kind of M.
Would we be here today trying to make our M better than ever if we decided "well, that's a dealbreaker, sorry, the M is done."
By definition, no. If there's a cheating spouse in my future, I won't be back here trying to make that M better.
And believe me, I thought like you, as I think most people do when they start a R/M. "I'd never take him back if he left." or "I'd never forgive her if she cheats." But people do and they can come out stronger.
That's what I thought, too. That's not the way I reacted when it actually happened. That will be the way I react if it happens again. People certainly can come out stronger for it but that path to strength holds no further interest for me.
The choice is deal with the problems in your M or drop every R/M that comes into trouble.
I don't think anyone's said they aren't willing to deal with problems and trouble in their M. There are millions of problems and troubles that aren't cheating.
So ultimate dealbreakers? boundaries? I just dunno anymore...
I don't think anyone's saying there's a generally right or a generally wrong way. You should live your M in whatever manner works for you. Ultimate dealbreakers and boundaries may not be your way.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
You should live your M in whatever manner works for you.
You made a lot of counter-points but I think the one above sums it all up.
And I totally agree with that statement.
Well, maybe I'd say "for the two people involved in that M" to make it more clear. I might think one way but if my H thinks another, the M is done. That's why so many M crash and burn.
And of course the goal is keeping the M together...happily of course, not in misery. That's why I feel for Karen right now. She wants her M to work so bad (which I respect) but she is not finding a path to their happiness. I truly hope she does.
If I thought landing on you like I did with LFL would help, I'd do it. But doggone it... this crap you are spewing...
It's just really beneath you, and you'd never, ever tolerate it out of me, were I doing the same thing. You are just way too dam intelligent for this hissy fit you are throwing. So, there must be some fear there, on your part, that keeps you from doing something different. Sorry, just don't buy the BTDT thing. You are on 2x marriage.
I suppose on the one hand I am throwing a hissy. I pulled back from H and my M since this pregnancies inception because H pulled back from me for the whole pregnancy itself, throughout the pregnancy I kept trying with H and finally we ml in feb. I don't remember how long that drought was but I talked with H & he agreed that he had been disconnected & he said he didn't know why. We went away, ML once & folks, that was IT until now. Sure it was my fault that I let it go and go and go until we got here. I have gone from anger to resignation to self loathing to ideas/plans & back again. During the anger part it looks a whole lot like a hissy. OTOH I think genuine confusion is a better and more accurate way to look at it.
My somewhat willful behavior of just leaving the proverbial ball on the ground is PART of why we are here but remember, he has responsibilities to our M too. Yes, I am married for the second time. I married H because I thought he loved me and wanted a life with me. Sometimes I think he only wanted to make and raise babies with me and that what he wanted sexually is a whole nother matter. I won't divorce H and I won't make our life together crappy (despite the hissies on the forum we get along well in real life and he would probably say we were "fine", just tired and stressed). What I have come to want is some honesty. If he wants to be married in name only maybe we can negotiate that. If he's got issues maybe we can work on them. If he wants to go I won't like it but I'll accept it. Somethings gotta give. Hence, my two paragraphs that Stig found to be finger pointing.
My genuine dilemma is that if those two paragraphs that were my attempt to be responsible for myself and myself only were shaming and finger pointing and we are so distant as to not even merit the usual pecks and if my gut tells me that H has some really icky things inside that are part of this equation how am I to approach it that doesn't qualify as a hissy?
Is your suggestion that I just whole hog join back in my marriage, kiss H, initiate with H and then when he gives me the "You again?" look point it out so I can really be a b*tch in his eyes? What do I say, "Gee H, seems like you aren't interested wanna tell my why?"? If I did that every time H acts that way it would be shaming because even in our early R this would happen a lot and me, in my deluded lust would think, "Oh, he's just inexperienced and needs lots of positive affirmations." So, I would giggle, jokingly cuff him and say, C'mon you know you wanna. Then praise the h@ll out of him no matter how half heartedly he joined in. So now, if I joined in this M the way I really want to live I would be calling him on lack of participation at least once/day if not more. Then what??
So, you see Stig and Corri I am really confused. My little "speech" was judged as finger pointing and just "do it" coupled with radical honesty (positive or negative as applies) will for sure be finger pointing when the feedback is negative. What am I missing? I am a terrific wife and mother who participates wholly in every aspect of our family life, I have made my sexual needs known throughout this M to no avail. I need to get H to tell me where he stands. To me, that is the missing piece of all of this. All he can ever tell me when we have these talks is that he "loves me" and that he is "tired, stressed and there is this event or that event that has something to do with it". It is BS but if I were to catalog the sum of the R and include all of the droughts and all of the excuses and tell him that the droughts are real and the excuses false I really would be throwing a hissy. It is a dilemma and I am stuck. I love him. I love him enough to stay with few deal breakers. I would prefer a real M, with sex. I will let him go if necessary.
Tell me how to get out of my stuckness. Do I re-format the talk or do I just go forward behaviorally as Stig suggested?
FWIW - I think that some affairs are deal breaker while others may not be. I can't say what I would do but I lean toward deal breaker. That is why I tend my fences despite these issues. If I go outside my M, it means I am out.
FWIW - I think that some affairs are deal breaker while others may not be. I can't say what I would do but I lean toward deal breaker. That is why I tend my fences despite these issues. If I go outside my M, it means I am out.
I'll add that all of this dealbreaker stuff would also be a dealbreaker for me IF I didn't have children. I guess in a sense I'm viewing it as "the family" trumping "the M." But not really, because if I couldn't be happy in the M, I'd probably want out. I just don't know. I'll respond to the rest in another post.
Please recognize that I am not attacking you or anyone else who has gotten enamored of someone outside their M. It would be easy for it to happen. It would also be easy to take the quick fix of a one night stand. However, I have mentioned many times that my parents made it past an affair on my Dad's part and I believe that their M is the better for what they went through. Certainly with kids involved all affairs should not be deal breakers. If both people realize what they did that made the affair possible and they can fix things it is better for the kids for their parents to stay together. I think there are many instances where an affair is not a deal breaker and doesn't have to be.
However, I don't know what I would do. I have to be honest and say that I don't know if I could get past it. Due to the pain I saw both my parents go through during that time (especially my Mom) I know that if step out on my H then I have for all intents, stepped out on my M. I would rather go without than be 1/2 in and 1/2 out of my M and my family, trying to be a good M partner and also a good affair partner. It can't work so I won't do it.
Tell me how to get out of my stuckness. Do I re-format the talk or do I just go forward behaviorally as Stig suggested?
Well, you could try the behavioral change but considering that hasn't worked in the past, why would it work now? Something is really wrong here and if you don't figure out what it is, you are going to be stuck. The other night when I was having the horrid talk with H, I told him I didn't think I loved him anymore. How could I do what I did if I loved him? I think that was pretty honest and it hurt him to hear it but I was very confused and lost. All I knew for sure was that feeling loved was a need and I wasn't going to go my whole life without it. You say you love your H, but what does that really mean? And what does that mean when he says it to you? That you will just stay M, committed, not matter how miserable each of you may be? That is not love in my book. It is commitment but not love. I think you need to figure out which one is more important to you and you may make more progress. Just from what I know of you, it seems that love is more important but you are trying to talk yourself into thinking commitment is where you should focus your energies. Are you being honest with yourself? You can't be honest with him until you do.
There is my heart and there is my head. Yes, I am a romantic. If I have a choice I prefer love. What has that bought me so far? A failed M and a second M where I over-romanticized a really great guy who is probably somewhat ill suited to me.
When I say I love H I mean the whole package. The lack of contact causes me to have difficulty with the romantic part of the equation but I am a big girl and i know that "in love" comes and goes. I have great hope that with H's participation we could have both romance & commitment. When he says love he means commitment. The truth is that due to my failed first M commitment comes first. I believe he knows that and uses it.
The party was fun but we brought the baby due to his ear infection so it wasn't quite the adults only event that I hoped for. The food was great, the dress was great. My children told me how pretty I looked and H wore his new jacket and looked terrific.
