Karen, I say your H has his porn stash or fetish interests, some place online.
And I see your H as being different than LFL’s H. He is different than HoneyPot’s H.
He only takes sex with you on top and you have to basically F him, provide most of the action. That is something I don’t understand.
I take bottom position because BB doesn’t like me on top anymore. I haven’t mastered the levitation thing so topside for me means short nookie time, and I like to linger and play.
I wonder if he has some abuse in his past, maybe lots of religious shame, and what about gender role confusion?
I know how to act in a “Me man, you woman world,” but have trouble operating in a women’s lib setting. Then there is the politically correct model, which is sometimes more confusing.
Does your H have any trouble in that area? Withdrawing or becoming stubborn doesn’t count as appropriate.
I like your ideas for a plan of action from the RJ, Corri et al, post so far.
I am feeling like I need to say something like, "H I love you and we have a problem. We have not had sex in almost a year. About six or eight months ago I made a decision not to pursue you for sex that you don't want to have and see what would happen. What has happened is that you and I have widened our distance even more. I have told you before that I would like to have sex with you no less than once a week, preferably 3 times. You have repeatedly indicated that if I backed off you would step up to the plate and initiate when you were interested. That hasn't happened. I suspect that there are deeper issues like an emotional or physical or computer affair, pornography addiction, anxiety, emotional sexual issues, depression or something like that. It isn't my place to diagnose, only to partner with you in solving our problem. I need you to get honest about it. I will email you the name of two certified sex therapists in our area whom I hope you will consider seeing. I have a bookcase full of material on sex and marriage that I hope you will consider reading and maybe even discussing with me.
While you are pursuing whatever answers are relevant to you I will stay out of it unless invited and make myself more available to you. I will make myself available to you for sex and affection on a daily basis but I won't participate in half hearted attempts. I will take responsibility for initiating sexual activity of some sort once/week sometime between Friday and Sunday. You have the right to refuse. I have no intention of leaving this marriage but there is a window of opportunity on my wholehearted effort that will eventually close if I find I am the only one trying. If you allow it to close I cannot say what kind of marriage we will have. I don't want to talk this to death and you don't need to say anything but I am willing to answer any questions you have if you are confused about anything. I will know if you have taken in what I have said by what actions you take starting immediately after this conversation. Lack of touch, disinterest and other inaction will be taken as an action.
OK, Soooooo what's holding Karen back from saying or e-mailing this?
I'm not emailing it because I have done that tack before to no avail. Last night H was at work until midnight - we talked four or five times between 6pm and midnight but he was waiting for some workmen to get done with something. I was asleep when he got home. I cannot wait indefinitely but the tack above sounds about right for the next step. Or, at least, it can't get any worse.
Lou,
No. He does really well in various settings but I do think that when we dated he took the "with your permission" thing a little far.
Well last night was a bust for talking, cuddling or anything else. The baby has an ear infection - sucks... By the time I got the little people in bed and H picked up DS16 at work at midnight we were just done. Tonight we have a business related dinner party to attend. I plan to wear a very small dress and do my wifey thing and flirt with all H's clients in a very tactful, business promoting way. Maybe H will notice and maybe he won't but the party will be fun either way. We go every year and they serve fabulous food and drinks!!!
I thinkFrom your past episodes I think I have a better handle on your reactions to the sitch. From what I see, when you feel H isn't picking up any of your self-determined "availability and "need for validation" signals (often quite subtle and beneath your perhaps stoic or calm surface) you withdraw into your private bubble of slowly building resentment towards H.
It's why we guys (yes myself inclouded) are so surprised when we get that bomb dropped on our heads: a la, ""What??? How long have you been feeling like this? A YEAR? Why on Earth didn't you tell me what I was doing was bothering you a long time ago? What? Now you'resaying it's too late?"
RJ, Corri et al,
Yes - H has a lot of rebel in him and when directly approached he does this weird sort of dismay/shame/rebel thing that is characteristic of kids with major trauma backgrounds - makes me wonder what all I don't know about his background. H has a great deal of murky depth to plumb and it takes everything to keep the counselor in me in her own corner as counseling your loved ones is a BAD idea.
Well I think your instinct pretty much answered your question about the "verbally/textually laying it out there" approach. I don't think I would approach him directly then; sounds like his autopilot defensive mechanism kicks in and he will be shamed even further.
I have to cop to my part in our one year drought.. Boy that signals trouble; when you are keeping a running tally of the days gone without sex like a prisoner marking slashes on his stone wall with chalk. I wince every time I see a poster doing this. LFL to be the most recent -- and we saw where her resentment led her.
Kind of keeps that resentment nice n upt to the minute like an old man obsessed (to his exasperated W's chagrin) with constantly fiddling with his grandfather clock 3x a day in his OC drive to somehow out-do Colorado's atomic clock for time accuracy.
I might suggest in the future to stop scowling at the past time gaps and start focusing on something far more positive and productive with an internal smile -- like counting down the hours/days when you will decide to just roll over in bed and give H a very nice long unprompted BJ. I remember saying to you a long long time ago, something to the effect: Karen, why are you dumping all of your sexual happiness onto H's lap and working yourself up when it just sits there? Take back your happiness.
If you want something that feels good, go and get it, girl. I know. I know. He "should" be the one blah blah. Stop handing your power over like that. Work on getting what you want while trying to figure out how to entice him to be more assertive.
His obligation is to finish the job of giving you pleasure. Whatever he has bouncing around in his head is far too draining on your own well being to try and figure out. H Mental diagnostician/custodian was not in your job description from day 1 of your R. You'll drive yourself crazy with doubt and resentment if you stew in silence in the baby's room whilst trying to pick his brain with your grumbling internal dialogue.
About six or eight months ago I made a decision not to pursue you for sex that you don't want to have and see what would happen. What has happened is that you and I have widened our distance even more.
OK now this is scary. YOU made the decision? How involved was he in this moratorium? You even have it down to a pretty specific number like 8 months. It reminds me of that guy who posted a long time ago ... Pittman or something.
I thought he was off his rocker. He was actually waiting with gleeful anticipation for the day he was going to spring a big D surprise on his w when the kids were older. Mind was already well made up and the jerk froze her out. Said to the effect, "I haven't approached her for sex in the past year and have been very, very quiet to see what she does and how important it is to her. Hand wringing. Boy am I gonna slam the results of my twisted experiment over her head when she sees the days of sexual drought tally and walk away satisfied.
No way would I put you in his class, Karen. I think your statement that you would not leave your R due to your commitment is perhaps the most attractive and endearing thing an F can show to an M.
Yes. Doesn't mean you're not human and don't have an ultimate dealbreaker. I think everyone should sit down and figure out what that is if they don't already know. That is your line in the sand. It's kind of a reassuring end point to let you know you won't be forever swirling in a stressful unknown limbo.
Guess what my new one is? LMAO You cheat on me once, you are out ... the ... door. No passing Go, no collecting $100.
I have told you before
that I would like to have sex with you no less than once a week, preferably 3 times.
You have repeatedly
indicated that if I backed off
you would step up to the plate
and initiate when you were interested. That hasn't happened.
I suspect
that there are deeper issues like an emotional or physical or computer affair, pornography addiction, anxiety, emotional sexual issues, depression or something like that. It isn't my place to diagnose, only to partner with you in solving our problem.
I need you to get honest about it.
I will email you the name of two certified sex therapists in our area whom I hope you will consider seeing.
I have a bookcase full of material on sex and marriage that I hope you will consider reading and maybe even discussing with me.
Ouch. I bolded those for a reason. Notice all the "YOUs:? See how this approach might be viewed by him as further evidence he should be ashamed of himself? Kind of reminds me of my boyhood and mom's litany of reasons why I was a screw-up. LOL
While you are pursuing whatever answers are relevant to you I will stay out of it unless invited and make myself more available to you.
I will make myself available to you for sex and affection on a daily basis
but I won't participate in half hearted attempts.
I will take responsibility for initiating sexual activity of some sort once/week sometime between Friday and Sunday.
You have the right to refuse. I have no intention of leaving this marriage but there is a window of opportunity on my wholehearted effort that will eventually close if I find I am the only one trying.
See the difference when you stop saying the accusatory "you" and keep your power to yourself with "I"? I find an F who is proactive in a positive way like this to be quite the turn on from time to time.
If you allow it to close I cannot say what kind of marriage we will have. I don't want to talk this to death.
Last bolded line. Good. Because your post was starting to convince me otherwise. *smirk*
and you don't need to say anything but I am willing to answer any questions you have if you are confused about anything. I will know if you have taken in what I have said by what actions you take starting immediately after this conversation. Lack of touch, disinterest and other inaction will be taken as an action.
Is that completely whacked?????
Let's just bold the whole thing, shall we? This last segment? Yes, completely.
I have to be really honest here and admit something about this last segment really turns me on in my male brain. I think it's the Gestapo-like Achtung! commands as I picture some nondescript hot F in my mind in shiny tight black leather, high-heeled jack boots, perhaps a riding crop, pouty glossy red lips, hair pulled back under her Third Reich cap and her stunning eyes hiding in the dark beneath the bill. My mind races in wild anticipation about how she will punish me for disobeying her commands -- which I most assuredly will do. Then how to plan to flip her in the midst of her power trip (which is turning us both onin the confines of her office) and really break down her hard exterior and make her soft and purry after I throw her over her austere desk.... sigh.
*sshaking head to clear the trance*
Ahem. Karen. My fantasies aside, this segment sounds more like an interrogation with only the bright light in H's face missing.
Remember. Positive. What I meant before about the F "steering" her own pleasure by taking the initial pressure off the man to take charge when he's used to being passive.
Mojo was right. My suggestion would have been horrible in LFL's situation when I had no idea of the extent of her indiscretions. But now look at Mr. LFL. This is the ideal situation I was addressing.
IMO the more she praises him for his "God, do me like that, yes, you are so Fing hard" etc etc, the more confidence he will build.
H sleeps nude. Perfect opportunity. Have you ever just reached over and given him a HJ or BJ to get him started? Why not? Cause you're waiting on him? F that. It feels good once he gets going and finishes you off, no? Isn't that the goal in the end anyway? Who cares how you got there exactly?
All this to say in this horribly long response to go get what you want if it's what you want. And if he balks that is the ideal time to drag that puppy into the light: "What? You don't like when I do that to you? If you're not enjoying this H, we need to talk about how you feel about sex right NOW."
Finally (I promise), I would urge you to give H more sexual affirmations. Have you ever told him in mid-coitus things like, oh, god, you are so Fing good you're making me crazy or to that effect? Post-coitus, no man has ever done to me what you do to me in bed. I want more of that stallion from you, H? Do you think you will be up to the task, my hunk of a man?
Amazing what positive reinforcement can do for a sexually repressed male for his self-esteem.
LFL I hope you paid attention to this last part, you crazy woman.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
PS. Forgot to clarify. The sexual affirmations. Should be given with sincerity and, while not too sparingly, not too over the top either. Don't need to tell you; when a person with low SE or shame issues hears too much praise they get idgity b/c they don't believe they're worthy of sustained high praise.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I need to process this in more depth but I will give it a cursory response.
All the "I's" are representative of the "good" psychological practice of owning our own stuff and feelings and such. I have purposely avoided things like "You make me feel unloved, like crap etc..." although to a certain extent it is true. However, I can see your point about how that would definitely underscore any "shame" that he carries around already.
I have given him so many unprompted bj's to get him started it is laughable. Guys always think this is the answer. The answer is that my H loves bjs. What follows bjs or hjs varies widely. Sometimes it is just crap/begrudging sex, sometimes good sex. Sometimes rubbing up on H, grabbing his stuff, initiating a romantic kiss or the like just leads to the heavy sigh "Oh God, are you still here? You haven't gotten over that crap yet?" is how it sounds to me.
Yeah, I stopped initiating but it didn't start as any kind of "test" and it wasn't to trap my H in some twisted scheme. I was an exhausted post partum Mom of four children and when I got the go ahead from the ob/gyn at my pre-partum weight and H didn't ask, bat and eye or anything I thought - well, he's a big boy, he knows the 6 week checkup thing and if he's interested he'll say something or do something. And then he didn't and then I couldn't initiate with any authenticity. I can initiate with any man that shows some interest, major interest, a little interest but none? Not authentic, not respectful of myself and I couldn't do it. Then I realized to my surprise that it was already about 4/5 months. In the past when I pointed out one or two month droughts to H he acted like they were an anomaly. What could he say about this one? So, yes, I purposely stopped initiating and I waited to see if my H held any little tiny flame for this middle aged, mother of his children who works her tail off to stay/become attractive to him............. And here we are.
I have given sexual affirmations and from what I can tell I think he sees them as false praise that I give in order to get more out of him or something. Or they are an expression of the alien that I am (an HD female). There has been nothing to affirm including kisses, but pats, flirting etc... in so long that unless I push myself on him all I can sexually affirm at the moment is his skill in putting up Christmas decorations, doing homework with the kids etc... I do affirm those things - very frequently, appropriate thanks and so on. I just don't say, "Gee H, when you mash those potatoes it makes me hot." OK - so I am kidding. I DO get it.
I take it that you feel if I take the reigns (again), praise him and such that over time his approximations to the ultimate goal (regular, on purpose sex) will get closer and closer to that goal. That assumes that he wants me and that he doesn't have some of the issues that I mentioned. I do see the difference in my pointing out when he ain't exactly playing along and calling him on it. How is that less shaming than having the talk out front?
Is there any part of what I said that makes sense to say as a kind of ice breaker for this drought?
I recognize that H isn't solely responsible for my SL but mb only takes me so far and as I pointed out my self respect has gotten to be as much an issue as anything. However, I do recognize that this (once again) will come from me or we will continue to drift apart into something sad and completely unworkable.
Karen
PS Your little fantasy riff made me laugh. I sometimes think H would like me to do the dominatrix thing.
karen & stig, I think it really is hard for men with a "normal" sex drive to even imagine that a guy could be like mr karen or my bf. They think of themselves and, quite correctly, think that if their partner initiated a bj, that would kick things off. Like you, I initiated bj's plenty, and nothing was ever reciprocated. He has virtually never reached for me in a sexual way. I, too, have gotten that look that says, "Are you still after me?" One time we were watching a movie where a married couple spontaneously ML in the back of their car at their house in the country. Bf's comment, "What are they? Sex maniacs?" Fortunately I'm in a position where I can drop the rope.
Like you, karen, I'm convinced that there are dark and troubled things in bf's past that have led him to be this way. But I just can't keep trying to heal him. (I'm sure living with his mom these days is doing a lot to help him get over that stuff. NOT!)
If I thought landing on you like I did with LFL would help, I'd do it. But doggone it... this crap you are spewing...
It's just really beneath you, and you'd never, ever tolerate it out of me, were I doing the same thing. You are just way too dam intelligent for this hissy fit you are throwing. So, there must be some fear there, on your part, that keeps you from doing something different. Sorry, just don't buy the BTDT thing. You are on 2x marriage.
