runningoutoftime, I want to understand what you mean.
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From what you've described it seems like you are trying to coerce or control her, and shame her into "wanting" to be married (which would actually push her away).
I don't know about "shame her". Coerce her? Control her? I don't see that. I am asking her to work on the marriage. She is spending time visiting OM. I am pointing out she could spend time working on her marriage instead. Is that shame? I asked her to give me one thing to work on myself. I get that it is pursuit. But control? Seriously, help me see this.
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Also, what type of responsibility does she need to accept? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Does she want to stop the divorce and work on the marriage?
Responsibility for the failure of the marriage. She puts it all on me and flatly refuses to accept responsibility for her part. I am willing to accept my part. She says "it's only you!"
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If you are both in divorce she can spend time with anyone she likes. I don't mean to sound rude here, but what are you doing to make any woman want to spend time with you?
Of course she can spend time with anyone she likes, whether we are married, divorced or otherwise.
What am I doing to make her value me, or want to spend time with me? I'm feeling a bit defensive about the way you asked the question, but here ya go:
working every day so I can pay for her house, her car, her lifestyle. In the meantime I am living in a borrowed room.
delighting our children with a bountiful christmas.
spending quality time with the children.
listening to her when she wants to talk.
going to church myself after a long hiatus.
new clothes, new haircut, new cologne.
being calmer, happier, having fun on my own.
keeping up with my hobbies, activities.
ongoing therapy.
Why do I feel like you are coming down on me? What's the deal here? What is it about what I wrote that is ticking you off? Have I offended you? Do I sound arrogant or something? Do I remind you of someone you don't like? Seriously. I want to know.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
No matter how much a person works towards improving themselves (i.e. becoming a "better" person, improving relationship skills, attractiveness, etc...), it doesn't mean a spouse will notice, or appreciate, or change their mind about leaving. It's merely one's best chance of changing the dynamics and possibly getting a spouse to see the other person, and the marriage from a more positive perspective. But in the end, self-improvement has to be something you do for yourself.
The challenge is, I think she partly left because of self-esteem issues. She was always comparing herself to me and feeling inadequate. If I go off and improve myself, how will that help her?
This is the dilemma I have. If what she needs me to be is more attentive to her, more complimentary and truly appreciative of her, then, how do I go about doing that if I follow the "maintain distance" and "improve yourself" guidelines?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
My apologies for sounding harsh. I don't have much time right now, but I will write back later and try to explain my thoughts (whether they be right or wrong or crazy) in more depth. And perhaps I'll say something helpful... and perhaps not...
Honestly, I could sympathize and agree with everything you say (and believe me I'm completely on "your side"), but I don't think that would be helpful in giving you alternative perspectives or ideas that may help you save your marriage.
Okay.... I have a few moments...
You wrote about telling your wife: "if you spent half the effort on your family, that you do on OM, then we wouldn't be in this situation."
Even though that's true and a logical response on your part, to your wife it would sound like you were blaming her (even if it is her fault, this is not a way to convince anyone to stay in a marriage). That coupled with her thinking you've been spying on her R with OM, learning about his other relationships, etc... could feel quite controlling and manipulative to her.... like you're telling her that since OM is a scumbag (and yes, you and I know he is), she should forget him and work on the marriage.
Yes, she should do that. But when a spouse is angry and has filed for divorce, they will only see you as "the bad guy." They will only blame you. Everything gets twisted around. Convincing someone to stay in a marriage is not a matter of telling them, or even logic. You have to detach, try different things to see what works or doesn'tm and sell yourself like you would to ANY woman you might meet.
I know you are a good guy. You are here on this board and you want to keep your family together.... but keeping your marriage together and convincing your wife about this is a whole other matter.
I'll try to go over some more points and things that you asked me about when I have more time.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
It was a backslide. I sometimes feel I need to do these things to keep my sanity.
I went skiing with my boys yesterday, had a blast. Brought them back home tired, hungry, happy.
In the car ride I worked with D11 on his US States. He's learning geography in school. Grrrrrr. I get to do this in the car?! I told my boys I miss being with them every day. I don't want them to think I don't want them.
Lots of hugs and affection for all the kids, all around, as I departed. W maintained her distance. She went to the other room as the boys and I had soup. (shakes head) It's like she can't bear to see me and the kids enjoying each other's company.
one day at a time!
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Okay, I'll try to point out some things in the moments I have here. Yes, you can be complimentary and distant. For example, with someone you admire at work you can do this. I think being complimentary without expectations and allowing distance, can definitely earn you points. One important thing I tried to remember every day during my divorce was before I opened my mouth to speak, I needed to think about the words that were going to come out. Will these words make him want to be closer to me, or more distant?
Don't think about working on your marriage, think about the first little steps of developing a friendship with this person. That's the goal at this time. To get her to a point where she doesn't hate you. You have to be subtle and have no expectations of her. You also have to accept that this divorce can go through.... and accept that it will go through.... and the best you can do is make sure you become the kind of guy she will regret losing. Because there is always the slimmest chance she may possibly realize this before it's too late.
Now, what do you think OM "fed" her that she needed? Support, listening, compliments???? What do you think she was/is seeking in that relationship?
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Now, what do you think OM "fed" her that she needed? Support, listening, compliments???? What do you think she was/is seeking in that relationship?
I think, honestly, my wife has serious self esteem problems. The OM also had problems - his W was the breadwinner, he a stay-at-home dad. Always coming up short of competent. Always late to pick up the kids at school. Wrecked their cars. Missed paying the bills. He always drank waaaay too much. (Mornings, any time of day). Embarassing himself at dinners. He's a bright guy, but always seemed to come up short of his potential. Always bouncing from one crisis averted to another.
My wife somehow identified with this man. Little did I know that she and he became so close, that their respective relationship problems merged. Every problem in OM's marriage, got tattoo'd on my marriage. When OM's wife scolded him for not having a job, my wife felt inadequate and resented me. When OM's wife totally emasculated him and he allowed it, my wife resented ME. I was aware of W and OM's relationship, heck he was my best friend, but I did not know it had crossed into what they call an emotional affair.
When the actual PA started, the trigger was a crisis for her OM: the OM's wife was pregnant but the OM had had a vasectomy. The OM was drunk, despondent. W was there with him. OM took her hand and held it. Then he kissed her. Then he led her up to bed! This from W's account of it, in the days after I learned of the PA.
Seeing all this, I think my wife is codependent, needs someone to be needy for her. She was fulfilled as a mother, doting on the children when they were young, but as they grew and needed less of her attention, she turned to find someone else who was needy.
Of course my wife needed more support from me, she needed me to be a better listener. Right now I am out of the house and there are few chances for me to listen to her.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
My guess is your wife felt sorry for OM, and he showed a lot of appreciation for her concern and interest.... and this made her feel good.
How much contact do you currently have with your wife? I imagine the times you do get to talk with her are when you are taking turns with the kids. I wish I had some great advice here, but the only thing I can think of is when you do see her, even if it's just for a short time, think of something you can honestly compliment her on, or thank her for. Even if it's just something with the kids. Don't expect her to believe you or thank you for this. Just kind of do it and then quickly change the subject and ask her something impersonal about her self or something going on. Keep the conversation as light, friendly and impersonal as possible.
Even if she hates you and blames you for everything on earth, eventually, your being pleasant will cool her down. I know.... my husband would say and do anything and everything to create a fight and get me mad. I finally learned to stay calm, pleasant and even apologized for any "misunderstandings." Eventually my niceness wore him down. Although it did take time. This was all very gradual, and sometimes I'd make mistakes. But I was determined to change the negative "memories" he created about me and the marriage (seeing everything as bad), into something more positive. And the only way I could do this was by trying to create a good impressions and "memories" in the present.
Over the weekend I went to a movie with my boys (12 and 11) and then skiing on saturday. I was in the house Friday eve to pick up the boys and see D6, and also in the house Saturday morning to prep for the skiing trip, and Saturday evening after the return. At all times I was gentle, light, happy, and affectionate toward the kids. Polite and cheerful but not overly friendly to W.
Sunday I went to church happy and full of good feelings. It had been a really good couple of days for me, spending it with my boys. After church I recd 2 emails from W accusing me of not respecting her boundaries (not staying out of the house) and of stalking her.
Running, it's just as you said - she feels too much pressure.
So far no response by me.
In the meantime Monday, I stopped the direct deposit - she no longer gets access to all my income. I cancelled all the joint credit cards and froze the joint checking account.
For good measure I cancelled the $150/month internet/cable/phone package. I know this all sounds pretty drastic but we are spending $1000 more than I make every month. $23k credit card balance. yikes. And I myself have minimal costs - no rent, phone, car payment, etc. Though I do have $40 in gas expenses and $40 or so in car insurance every month. but seriously, that's it. I live with friends, rent free. Essentially I cut my own spending to the bone because we're in financial distress.
W emailed me asking "is this just another attempt to control me?"
I'm sure she doesn't like it but, umm.... sometimes reality bites.
These days I no longer respond emotionally to her accusations. Sometimes I explain myself - eg, "I don't live in the house, i don't use the internet,phone and cable. I want you to be clear that this is YOUR budget you're spending, not mine."
This is the weird part. Half of me feels like this is necessary step - this is reality setting in. The other half of me feels despondent because I know this is going to be hard on my wife.
Tuesday W emailed me inviting me to spend time with the kids Tues evening. Of course I accepted, met her at wrestling practice. D11 goes to wrestle, the other 3 came with me. we went to have cookies and ice cream, and we played in the evening rain. We all laughed til our sides split.
D12 had a writing assignment for school. He's supposed to write a persuasive letter. D12 "thinks" he is not a good writer, isn't confident, so writing is always a nervous assignment for him. We brainstormed it together for a while, I tried to make it light and funny. We came up with a bunch of ideas. Once he got started he was really rolling. Every one of them was funnier and sillier than the last.
When I returned the kids, just an hour and a half later, they were all boisterous and happy. D6 (who is nervous around me these days) wanted me to "show mom our trick!" (I had been picking her up, upside down, she screamed with delight). I was cool and distant from W, but affectionate to my kids. I miss them. Daily.
As she walked away with my beautiful kids, W called out "bye!" several times.
I don't know what to say at those times. I hate leaving my kids behind. every night.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
I can hear how proud you are and how much you love your kids. I am so sorry you miss them. That part is soooo not fair to us. We didn't ask for this, we didn't ask for less time with our kids. You are making the most of your time with them, that's all you can do.
You are doing the right thing by taking control of the finances. W will be mad/defensive at first, but she needs to accept it. Such is life. My H's OW actually thought her H would move out, but she would still have access to his money...
Good job on taking control of the finances. Now rather than it being an all or nothing proposition, you and your W can negotiate a fair arrangement. This will be a win-win over the long term because it will force her to learn about finances and budgets--so, if you do reconcile, she will have a better understanding of the pressures facing you.
I want to compliment you on your attention to you kids. You seem to be focused on making the limited time you have with them positive and meaningful. Is that a positive outgrowth of this situation, or has it always been that way?
I think what Running has been trying to communicate to you is that your wife is going to do what she is going to do. Although you want desperately to "fix" the marriage, you can't. You can only fix you and the problems that you brought to the marriage. She may notice, she may not. She may be so bitter at this point that you have to go through with the divorce to even be friends. You have no control over any of that. The only thing you can "fix" is you. Trying to show her what you have changed is pointless. Change for the sake of improving yourself. The person you become may be someone who interests her...or not. Even so, the person you become will be someone your kids are proud of.
