I'm going to cut to the chase now, since I believe your H has sufficient motivation to make the approach work.
A bit of background of myself. I was raised Catholic,and was a practising Catholic into my 30s.(although I currently mostly attend a lutheran church now). At one point, I even considered seminary myself. So... I am very cognizant of the mindset of a traditionally raised Catholic male.
The catholic tradition (at least from a lay person's perspective) mostly focuses on externals). "sit up straight, do what you're told, 'be good'". It doesnt focus highly on a personal relationship with God.. at least in this country. There are some Catholics who do have that... my Aunts, in particular, are wonderful examples of this. Additionally, it doesnt emphasize an in-depth knowledge of the bible. In some ways, it actually DIScourages it. Some people might even claim that "the church" discourages believers from drawing their own conclusions from the bible.
AAAAnnnyway.. my core point is, that someone can be "in the church" for decades, yet still not be fully versed in some aspects of biblical teaching. They can "get it wrong", through a combination of chance, and ignorance (and also a bit of bad teaching and personal pride can get in the way too!)
There are parts of the bible.. very specifically about marriage... that I had barely heard about, and hadnt thought about much. And/or other bits, that I had read/heard of, but thought "that's not what it really means", due to pride, and other lazy people going along with that attitude.
Getting a fresh perspective on those bits of the bible, radically changed my outlook on marriage. In ways that I never imagined, to degrees that I would never have considered. This was in my 30s, after having been a Catholic since my cradle.
Karen, it sounds like your husband is the way he is sexually, because he believes it's ok to be that way, and that he isnt obligated to you in that area. Biblically speaking, he is totally wrong.
The bible is very, very clear, that a husband is supposed to meet the needs of his wife in all areas, in every way that he can. Furthermore, it explicitly mentions sexual gratification, as a specific duty that he owes you.
Karen, there's lots of secular ways you could approach your problem in the bedroom, which may or may not work. I hope you'll believe me, however, that if you approached your sexual non-satisfaction from a biblical standpoint, you are guaranteed results. It sounds like your H is a strong enough believer that, once you clear his eyes in that area, you are going to be amazed at the change that will take place in him there
Your biggest, and pretty much only, challenge, is to pick a source that he will view as worth listening to.
I feel really happy for you. I know for certain now, that you do not have to stuck with your H being sexually vulcan for the rest of your life
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
Thanks Dom. This was a very thoughtful post. I think my H is unusual among Catholics in that his R with God is very personal to him. He keeps a journal, which I gather from him is largely his personal communication with God. I think what he grasps about marriage as an expression of faith is that it is a vocation of its own, that it is forever (come h@ll or high water) and that the having & raising of children is the fruit of this vocation. I know he knows all about the Song of Solomon but discussion of the need for regular sexuality in M gets met with a list of excepts - except when there is a crisis (always, in large families), except when I'm tired, sick, stressed..... I'm willing to accept the premise that he just hasn't met the right source.
What source made a difference to you? What did you learn about marriage that you were willing to change?
Unfortunately... I dont remember a *specific* source It might have even been multiple sources.
I think it was at some point after I had begun listening to some bible study programs on the radio driving in to work. [random note: for some reason, Christian *radio*, tends to be waaay more solid than Christian tv. I guess tv lends itself to flashy stuff, whereas radio, you actually have to concentrate on the words!]
I had started to hear various of them, discuss what God calls husbands to do, both from the old testament, but primarily from the letters from Paul.
For the first time in my life, the words that I had heard a few times, finally sank in, as being true, literally. I heard them say straight out, that yes, when he says, "love your wives, as Christ loved the church, gave himself up for her", he REALLY MEANS THAT. He really means, "as best as you are humanly able, sacrifice yourself, and your own wants, to serve your wife".
Previously in my life, pastors and teachers either skipped over that bit, or kinda gave the impression, "well thats impossible so dont take it too seriously"
The sad thing is, it only really hit me, when my marriage was deeply in trouble. My biggest regret is that I didnt find this earlier. I find myself convicted of the need to fully serve my wife... at a time when she is no longer willing to let me
PS: "the song of solomon", is nice for pointing out that God doesnt think "married sex is bad", in the general case. But it's other parts, that point out, "husbands need to give their wives regular sex", among other things.
PPS: ask him to show you where the "except when I'm tired" shows up in the bible. particularly when he's ALWAYS "tired". I'd say, if he's too tired to serve your needs... then the bible calls him to change his life, so that he is no longer tired... so that he can then serve your needs. But it probably needs to be a man who points this out to him, unfortunately.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control."
I'm no scholar, but that seems pretty clear. The passage about each not ruling over their own body tweaks my hackles a bit, but the fascinating thing to me about this is that it goes both ways, from a gender perspective; husband owes wife, wife owes husband, no favoritism.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Thanks Kett. Thanks Dom. Boy, I have a tough time holding scripture over someone's head given the fact that I am divorced. I am a huge one for not casting stones.
I don't think scripture should ever be used as a club to beat somebody with. That way lies hypocrisy, as you point out. (OTOH, on a day-to-day level, I doubt any one of us feels the need to be *perfect* before bringing some sub-par behavior to our partner's attention .... otherwise how would any of us ever get the friendly 2 x 4s we need?)
If he respects the bible and tries to conform his life to the principles therein, it would be very interesting to know if he is aware of this passage and how he sees it relating to your marriage. He seems (by his actions) to have zero respect for your needs and reasonings about your sex life ... I wonder how he would respond to a directive from a "higher authority"? As far as how you would go about that in a non-accusatory way, I don't know. Although I'm sure you're creative ....
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
As I mentioned on another thread I have been spending many nights (most, in fact) sleeping with baby. We've all had a head cold and between that and teething and the fact that H doesn't care where I sleep I've been sleeping with the baby in his room. I have gone to bed without any big hurrah, no hugs or kisses. I take the baby around to kiss everyone but I don't present my lips to H. Increasingly I'm uncomfortable changing in H's presence. Doesn't do anything for him why waste it?
Well, DD3 who has always preferred her Daddy to everyone in the world has become enamored of me lately and asked to sleep in the baby's room with me. I allowed her to do so one night over the weekend and again a few nights later. H finally makes a comment that "everyone needs to sleep in their own bed tonight". Didn't make any difference in his behavior but I did sleep in my own bed until 3am and just got up to comfort the baby here and there and came back, at 3am I sayed in baby's room for my final 3 hours before the alarm. It seems that H may be taking notice of my not chasing him and might actually be wondering what is going on.
It is like "going dark" or "wearing veils" - at first H thought he died and went to heaven because I was so quiet, didn't even ask for any alone time on my birthday, during the holidays.......nothing and he dove in headfirst with the kids. He is happily doing homework and special projects with all three of the older ones while I do baby duty. I do feel as if in the last week or so he looked up and thought to himself "Now where did she go??". Like hairdog and the end of the moratorium the biggest error I could make would be to jump on small signs that he has noticed my lack of presence.
Or.... I could be sealing the demise of the R - "out of sight, out of mind." I don't plan on leaving things this way forever. I do plan on adressing them but in a different way than I have done previously.
Like I said on another thread. You speak a language of alphabet, your H speak a language of symbols. Doesn't mean you don't both speak.
Men are dif than us women. When they make a vow... they make a vow. The VOW is IT. It doesn't matter how YOU become. His highest purpose is the vow, no matter what you do.
You are so testing his vow.
Stop testing. Be in it, or get out. That is honest.
If you are going to BE in it... then do what every woman has to do. Adapt. Change. Learn. Men don't do that. Sorry. They don't. We can get pissed about it all we like, but... that's just they way it is. IF a man wants to change, he will. aka Hairdog. He's changing for him. Not his wife. It is making him feel like the man he lost. That is what it is doing for him. If his marriage crumbles, he will handle it. But it won't be because he lost himself in the process. See?
Your man is being your man. He doesn't know what you ask of him... because one... you aren't being clear, and two... he is a man... and he has vowed to keep his vow.
I agree about the language issue. But what his symbolic language says to me is that he made a terrible mistake in choosing me and that now all he has left is to honor God by keeping the vow in name only.
I have been clear and repetitive. How do I get clearer?
