Flipping the tortilla

[Tostada]

W came into my office this morning to have an R talk with me..

I Let her start...she started by saying she is so sorry, but I am not the person for her anymore. She said she was going to try to wait until the kids were out of high school, then pull the trigger. But it just wasnt right anymore.

I brought up the OM. I said you cant feel anything for me as long as you are feeling it for him. I'm not blaming this on him, but it does tell me what you have been looking for in me. He is providing you a good listener, an agreeable mind, a companion, and someone you can talk to. He makes you feel good. I know thats all it is. She agreed with me.

Anyway...I tried to validate everything she was saying the best I could. I asked her what it was about me that wasnt 'right' anymore. The sad thing is she couldnt even really tell me. Its just not right for her.

two topics of resentment came up. She resents or believes my life has been all about sports. I validated it used to be, then tried to give as many examples as possible from the past to now that shows that its not. the other topic was my family. She resents or believes my parents never really connected with her. This may be true. They live 2k miles away. However, I agreed with her and said it shouldnt be about an occaisional experience with my family.

I told her I was disappointed because we now know what we need from each other and were not going to find out what that experience is like. I guess this is what drives me the most crazy. She also said she has noticed all my changes, but she thinks they are just for her. I told her some were for her, some for me, and I'm guessing I dont even know what some of them actually are. I also told her there are many things I'd like to do but I know you wont let me right now.

One of her other mantra's are that we are too different. She thinks we are opposites. I told her to look back the past couple months and look at what she has been doing and look at what I have been doing. We have been doing the same things, just not with each other. Working out, reading, going out to dinner, lunch, skiing, doing things with the kids, connecting with friends, etc. We have been doing the same things. We have more in common than she is willing to admit.

A bad note..she mentioned that three of her divorced friends told her that they have never been happier than they are now. Of course...are they going to admit their mistakes?

She really didnt want to talk to me all that much because she was afraid I could talk her into trying. So..I asked her if she would resume counseling with me..'No'....I then asked her for one favor. I have never asked her to read anything. So I asked her if she would be willing to read Love Languages. She said yes. but if she doesnt change her mind, she wants to discuss the next step. She wants to discuss it anyway. I hate all this.

[Laurie]

I Let her start...she started by saying she is so sorry, but I am not the person for her anymore. She said she was going to try to wait until the kids were out of high school, then pull the trigger. But it just wasnt right anymore.

Wow...your W is considering staying with you for a number of years? What comes to my mind when I read that is:

a) that you must be doing some things fairly well for her to even consider that, because if you were extremely difficult to be around, she wouldn't even think about hanging around for a while,

b)you have the great potential of more time to continue showing her your changes,

c) people may stay initially "for the sake of the children", but could slowly warm to the idea of wanting to stay for the M and fall back in love with their spouse.


Tostada, there was a study that interviewed and found extremely unhappy couples on the brink of D. They followed up on those couples five years later. Of the unhappy couples that stayed together, those couples were happier and/or more satisfied than ever. Of the couples that decided to split (5 yrs later), they, as individuals were unhappier that before. Time (along with good DB'g) can change things!

And by the way, Tostada - it is so good that you are trying to validate her! Keep it up!!

I am still going to encourage you to back off of OM talk, "what's wrong with me" talk, and the counseling talk. It only seems to take your R in a more negative direction - you want to go the opposite directioin, right?

So, keep up the validating and begin more backing off. Tostada - you are moving in the right direction.

[Lanzo]

Hi Tostada,

I know it's a bit scary to be in the position you are in with your W cos I've just survived that part (I think). It's like standing at the edge of a cliff and the only way to safety is to jump into a catch net which you can't see and you're not even sure is there. Trust me it is there.

I still felt a neediness in the way you handled your talks with your W So let me offer an alternative view on how you could have handled things.

I Let her start...she started by saying she is so sorry, but I am not the person for her anymore. She said she was going to try to wait until the kids were out of high school, then pull the trigger. But it just wasnt right anymore.

I'm sorry you feel this way this way, but if this is the course of action you wish to take, then you must have good reason which I am trying to understand. (etc, etc).

I brought up the OM...

Don't mention OM !!! No comments, No comparisons, No nothing. You may ask why, well talking about him, in your wifes eyes, will show you fear him and she will see you as inferior to him. So again, don't mention him (unless she does).

She resents or believes my life has been all about sports.

Yes my life was all about sports, I can see that now. No more comments, no examples, No justification, just leave it there she'll figure it out for herself.

She thinks we are opposites.

Yes we are different, we are opposites, I'm just realising that now. Again leave it there, she'll add more comment, just agree with them.

A bad note..she mentioned that three of her divorced friends told her that they have never been happier than they are now. Of course...are they going to admit their mistakes?

Divorced friends, big danger just pray they don't influence her thinking.

She really didnt want to talk to me all that much because she was afraid I could talk her into trying. So..I asked her if she would resume counseling with me..'No'....I then asked her for one favor. I have never asked her to read anything. So I asked her if she would be willing to read Love Languages. She said yes. but if she doesnt change her mind, she wants to discuss the next step. She wants to discuss it anyway. I hate all this.

I personally wouldn't have asked her to read books at this stage, because guess what, they won't change her mind now. So if she wants to talk D then talk about it "As if" you are agreeable. Right now she can see you're scared of this so she will push it on you. Relax and talk about it, and the subject soon gets pushed to one side or put on hold.

My last point is you need to change your mindset to take control of your own emotions. Say to yourself, I love my W, I want her, but I don't need her. This is the mindset that you need to adopt to get you through all of this.

Take care (cos this thread gonna lock up soon)

[Tostada]

Thanks for the input Lanzo and Laurie.

a couple things come to mind.

yes..i am surprised by the 'I wanted to wait until the kids were out of high school' remark. I dont know how long ago she was thinking this. Not sure what this really means. I guess she gave up on staying together for the kids. To me, this makes the divorced friends that much more dangerous. They all have kids and have made it seem to her that they are doing fine and are happy. But are they really? The other point Laurie mentioned. If she was really miserable, would she even consider this? I know my W told me a different married friend that she has confided in a bunch told her that if she was indeed miserable, she should leave. "miserable" is the key word. I dont think my W was miserable. And I dont think she is right now. Its stressful right now around her for sure. She could be unhappy with some aspects of our marriage. Some things may not have been totally perfect. But I think she is seeing the potential of greener grass. Not sure how she can see that, but she is predicting it anyway.

to say she would rather be alone than with me is hurtful. I dont think anyone would really choose to be alone would they?

as far as the OM..I brought it up to let her know that I dont really fear that at all. I wanted to let her know that as she told me she would never be with him, it was just a crush, that I knew that...and, I viewed it as he was doing everything she was looking for in me. I didnt look at him as a threat, just a signal of the things I needed to improve upon. Not sure she will let me do that as it involves deeper communication.

I have no idea if she will read LL. I suppose it cannot hurt if she does. I wont ask a question about it from now on.

as for the divorced friends. they really make me nervous. always have since this started. I feel like one of them for sure is very manipulative. she moved right behind my house and will do anything to get my wife closer to her. thus, I feel she's trying to make everything look o.k. and happy in her situation. She is not liked at all in the community. She and her boyfriend came over here for Xmas eve. I thought about bailing because I cannot stand her. But, I 180'd and was very nice the entire time. Just how do I get rid of her? She just like an OM to me.

[Lanzo]

The logic of a WAW is completely different to that of ours they see things differently to us. So for you believe little of what you hear from her and 50% of what you see. So when your W says she will stay with you until the kids are grown, at that moment in time that was her solution to the problem. Ask again in 2 months and the solution will be different. Let me give you an example, Sept of last year my W was telling me that we sell the house within 12 months split the cash and go our separated ways. Last week she was telling me that she doesn't want to sell the house, we were even discussing decorating it together this year. But she still doesn't know how to handle our overall sitch.

In your mind you can see OM as no threat which is why you brought him up, WAW will see it differently, the fact that you mentioned him, and asked what he does for her, will put in her mind that you are bothered by it. So don't mention him again if you can help it.

WAW will say lots of hurtful things, they are trying to initiate a negative response from you to help justify their overall feelings. If she's seeing the grass is greener then you have to step aside and let her sample it, if you fight her she'll make a run for it and you don't want that.

In my sitch I've not really had to deal with WAW divorced friends so I can't offer advice on how to deal with that (maybe someone else can).

I'm offering you some advice because although things look bleak there is a way forward, it's just that you have to ride that dreadful rollercoaster to get there.

[Tostada]

W called me this morning to ask if we could talk this afternoon...she said the divorce papers are coming Friday.

Nice.

I pretty much just said goodbye and hungup.

Now what do I do?

I am scheduling a coaching session for Thursday...and, I suppose I should call my lawyer. I dont really want to discuss anything with her right now. Not sure why we would need to put together a parenting plan or other ideas, we are both in the same house right now

I dont know what to do..

[smith18]

Has you W indicated any of the conditions of the D? Does she seem at all like she is fence sitting on certain things - division of assets, custody, support. If so, it may be an indication that there is still doubt in her mind and the filing is a wake up call.

You still have a lot of time. I feel so sorry that your W has the friends urging her on.

[Tostada]

I dont think she is fence sitting on anything...I dont know any of the terms in the paperwork.

She has a couple very manipulating friends, thats for sure. we also have some great friends that have given her advice to try and work it out, but she wont listen to anyone with that idea, not her family or even other close friends.

she wants to talk....but she has not taken into consideration one thing I have said or done in the past 4 months. She will say it's about the kids. If it was about the kids, then she should put forth some effort at what we have discovered and allow herself experience us now that we really know what we both need. If we can give each other what we each are needing, that is powerful. It can start with one person. Her allowing me to give to her. When she feels good about that, she will give back.

One thing that came up in our talk yesterday is she said it takes two of us to make it work, to create change in our relationship. I said, sorry...takes only one, because you would have to react to it. As long as one of us is interested, i guess there is still hope in a way.


Laurie; if youre reading this, I have a session scheduled with you Thu am...thanks...

[Tostada]

this just in...I have not replied yet.


"It seems like we can never really talk about the things I need to tell you
and speak with you about.The conversation always goes back to "we can make
this work and be happy". The bottom line is I am filing for divorce and our
marriage is over. I appreciate and respect the effort you have put into
making positive changes. Mostly, I love how it has improved your
relationship with D8 - she has wanted attention from you for so long and
you never really gave it to her. However, my feelings are not going to
change and while you think I am "quitting", I feel I will be "giving in" if
I stay. I owe it to myself to be happy and I want you to be happy more than
anything. Most importantly, we need to handle this right with the kids and
keeping them out of our details is definitely best. We need to tell them
that we aren't good together and although we tried, we know it is best to
live apart. They can't see you sad and depressed and certainly shouldn't be
hearing that you want to make it work and that I don't. The next chapter in
our lives should be about doing what is right for the kids. They need both
of us. And we need to stay positive and let them know everything will be
ok. And it will be ok.



I suggested a parenting plan and we have not discussed this. What do you
think? Let me know if you disagree, otherwise, I will tell my lawyer what I
suggested. Also, I know I told you I want you to move out - will you do
this without a fight? It will get very expensive if we can't agree on
things. I will even help you find a place if you want. It will be
important to get and furnish a place where the kids can call it home. The
last thing we will need to start to figure out is our finances. I will take
over the payments of this house and all utilities. I need you to pass along
this info so when I open my own checking account, I can set everything up
under my name. This may seem like it is happening too fast for you but you
have to understand that the longer we drag it out, the worse it is for
everyone.



Can we talk about this more tonight?

[john210]

Tostada,
If anyone can feel for you today, it is me. I got a similar kick below the belt this morning. I feel your pain and then some. It looks like our WAWs had their own new year's resolutions all planned out.
Anyhow, I have decided to accept tomove out (probably this weekend). Like Woog said, let's try to stay positive and hope this is the wake up call our WAWs need. If not, let's at least keep PMA up for the kid's sake.
Coragio amigo!