Okay. So I've been thinking. Let's say you met your ultimate. You all (i) have thoughts on how far I think I might go. For most, it is taboo. But let us say... you met the one person who would deliver all. When is it 'pushing the evelope,' and how do you know if it has gone too far?
Do you only know... until you have gone too far... or do you know? And if you do know, how do you know?
LFL certainly has fantasies. I would imagine that Karen and RJ do as well.
I know I do.
I certainly hit a cord with Lou. Until I hit it... ???
Not to say any of it is bad. None of it is bad. But I wonder. Fantasy is fantasy because it is fantasy. Reality never holds up. What do we do to ourselves, with our minds, that reality can never hold a candle to? Where does one stop and another begin?
In other words, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll Tootsie pop?
Meanderings of a New Year, perhaps. But. It was something I was contemplating myself, tonight. Given Mojo's recent post of the Black Man article... LFL... me wondering if Hairdog got laid tonight... (bets?)... Lou... Lil... I dunno. Sometimes, I just wonder...
Are you asking the members of the BB for permission to enter into a sexual relationship in which you play the role of the out-of-control, horny, high-drive submissive screaming/fainting-like-a-16-yr-old-in-an-old-Beatles-concert-film monkey-girl? Of course, my vote will be "yes". Meanwhile, I shall be exploring my princess-b*tch side by dating 3 giant men at the same time and not having sex with any of them and just getting off on watching huge hands fetch little cups of coffee for me and letting big fingers text me "sweet dreams" messages before I snuggle into bed in my pink pajamas with bunnies on them.
I will meet you back at the girls-who-wish-to-be-neither-HD-or-LD lunch table for a confab later.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
When is it 'pushing the evelope,' and how do you know if it has gone too far?
I feel like I don't understand anything anymore about how sexual attraction works so....I don't know if there is an answer.
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Do you only know... until you have gone too far... or do you know? And if you do know, how do you know?
I guess when one or both people decide it went too far. How is it working for their R?
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Fantasy is fantasy because it is fantasy. Reality never holds up. What do we do to ourselves, with our minds, that reality can never hold a candle to? Where does one stop and another begin?
That's the slippery slope I almost slid down myself. I guess I'm not too good at separating the two. What do you have in mind here? Need more info.
In other words, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll Tootsie pop?
If you are just asking how far can you comfortably go in real life with some sort of submissive/dominant fantasy, I would say that it really depends on a lot of different factors having to do with context. For instance, RJ (like my 2bx) likes her dominance on the dark side (black leather, dungeons, vampires etc.). I like mine on the lighter side meaning that I prefer a grinning "tease" over a scowling "torture". IOW, I like a sub/dom vibe but I don't really like much of a stereotypical S&M vibe. I didn't like it when my 2bx would put his hand on my throat during sex and when 6'5" GP said to me "Awwww, you have hands like a little 4th grader." and then lightly twisted my arm into an Aikido lock that verged on the scary rather than the sexy.
I know a woman who is seriously into being an S&M submissive in bed and I don't think that it is entirely unrelated that in real life she vibes about 20x more "too nerdy to f*ck" than me.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
If you are just asking how far can you comfortably go in real life with some sort of submissive/dominant fantasy, I would say that it really depends on a lot of different factors
No... it doesn't have to be submissive vs dominant... fantasy can include anything, including idealized expectations. For example... HDs want sex more than their LD counter parts... I think both people's sense of ideal 'sex' is way off... when does the 'ideal,' or even the fantasy, impede upon reality.
Is the sense of reality we have of our partners the problem with differing sex drives, because of our fantasies/idealizations? Does fantasy cause the angst, or does the reality? How do they get so skewed?
I have sexual fantasies I've never shared... but in not sharing them, could I be, in a sense, part of my own problem? If I do share a fantasy, and other can't/won't meet it... is my unwillingness to let go of the fantasy the cause of my unhappiness... or that my partner is actually reticent?
I have sexual fantasies I've never shared... but in not sharing them, could I be, in a sense, part of my own problem? If I do share a fantasy, and other can't/won't meet it... is my unwillingness to let go of the fantasy the cause of my unhappiness... or that my partner is actually reticent?
Well, I mostly believe in Dan Savage's GGG theory so I would say that the unwillingness to share your own fantasies or to be game to try your partner's fantasies (at least in some form or on some level) is the problem. Not sharing your own fantasies reeks of validation neediness and not being open to your partner's is just plain selfish.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Corri When is it 'pushing the envelope,' and how do you know if it has gone too far?[/c] That is too general of a question Corri. I would have to have a " Readers Digest" version of a book, describing what has taken place and how a person got to where they are or want to be.
[b] In other words, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll Tootsie pop? As many as it takes.
My Second thought is, are there some Tootsie Pops that we can admire, but we know shouldn't take possession of. They are for someone else to lick. It's like, X number of Tootsie Pops, X number of lickers. Each person that wants to, gets his choice but no one gets to have all they want. Let’s divide up the Tootsie Pops fairly.
I certainly hit a cord with Lou. Until I hit it... ??? For my clarification, would you relate to or explain the cords you have in mind.
FYI, I relate to many people on this forum in ways that some people would label as too personally.
Some days I can imagine being Lil, or her bf, or Sandi or her H, or Heywire or her H, mostly wondering how it is for each of them. How it might feel to be on each side of their respective fences.
There is the other side of me, when someone posts what hurts them, like Sandi's H, I have too much stuff. Like Lil's bf, some projects around the house take too long to finish. I think, Lou, you better take care of your own stuff. If something like not finishing projects bothers BB, Lil, and Sandi, it must be one of those almost universal things that bother women/people, no wonder BB and I have issues.
Getting back to what I would like. LFL H saying he wanted LFL to put her legs around him. That is something that used to happen to me but not since 1972. I miss it.
Fantasy is fantasy because it is fantasy. Fantasy or is it wishing we could have the better things happening in someone else’s R, happening in our own present Rs?
Mojo said she took (That sounds hot OR the guys wished their W felt that way) comments from male posters that way. I think it is true.
LFL wanted soldier guy and I think others have had similar feelings. What is destructive in my opinion is to want something but not have all of the bases covered, not having almost all of the negative events correctable or covered by damage control.
That is unless you can go from start to finish, do things in the correct sequence, wondering about how many licks it takes, as opposed to licking now and the heck with the consequences, well that is two different situations.
I sometimes wonder but don't have a workable plan start to finish, so I am at the wonder stage.
A couple of years ago, if someone from the forum would have rang my door bell at 1:30PM, on the next to last day of the month, arrived with their motor home, I might have seriously looked at the Tootsie Pop but don't know how far I would have gone in the lick dept. When I don’t have/know the whole plan, not acting seems to be the best plan.
Lou... Lil... I dunno. Sometimes, I just wonder... Any more details on what you had in mind?
me wondering if Hairdog got laid tonight Well, I hope he did! I hope he at least got a good feel. If he did, I hope it was more than insert tab "A" in slot "B" or just a feel. I hope there was an EC too, I really do.
Mojo's recent post of the Black Man article Mojo mentioned people wanting the black man to stay oppressed.
What I see is not wanting anyone to be oppressed or to see anyone fail, it is more like “do we trust this person as he or she presents him/herself?”
Does fantasy cause the angst, or does the reality? For me, reality is the problem. I really don't think what I want is that difficult for many women to do.
If I do share a fantasy, and other can't/won't meet it... is my unwillingness to let go of the fantasy the cause of my unhappiness... or that my partner is actually reticent? That is where reading different forums, from different points of view might knock off some of the out-lying elements of your fantasy. Other parts of your fantasy might seem more normal too.
Reading the SSM forum has helped me.
Reading some parts of the TIH http://www.takeninhand.com/ forum has also helped me. I don’t understand why someone would like to be slapped in the face, but if that is what a woman wants, I still won’t do it but I want to read in order to understand her POV. A Butt slap in a playful mode, I could do that if she likes it.
Then there are the Biblical based M sites where masturbation is a big sin, everything needs to be prayed about, and there isn‘t much room for fantasy. OK, they still have things I can consider as helpful.
NMMNG forum http://nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/index.php, well, that is another POV on life. Maybe it includes a little bit of fantasy. Or maybe false asumptions, like the guy has to try harder, doesn't deserve something are dispelled.
I am so not explaining myself... forgive me... I'm getting there.
Okay... I'm wondering, Lou, if you perhaps spend so much time focusing on what BB ISN'T, so much time focusing on what it is you are not getting (your ideal, your fantasy), that you are actually missing something right in front of your face.
For example... LFL (hope you don't mine, honey). She was completely focused on what her H wasn't giving her... she was completely focused on the fantasy of Soldier Guy... and just inadvertently, through honesty, stumbled upon something that her H actually IS... a guy turned on by talking... imagining his wife with some other guy... which turned him into the exact thing LFL has been seeking. But because she was so busy pursuing her own version of things (her ideal/her fantasy), (which her H was actively avoiding because her version of him didn't actually involve him), that she missed perhaps finding something her H IS, that would benefit both.
Lou:
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I certainly hit a cord with Lou. Until I hit it... ???
For my clarification, would you relate to or explain the cords you have in mind.
Well, when I brought up talking during sex... and your immediate response was what YOU didn't do... (your version of things), but the thought of maybe BB talking to you, or maybe exploring between you some version of that... appealed to you. In always focusing on what you are NOT getting, what ideal of yours is not being met... I'm wondering if you are missing out with the real BB because your version of her doesn't actually include her.
Does that make any sense?
I remember when I was LD in my M, my xH constantly asked me what I liked, what I wanted, in order to have sex. He wanted to give me just that, in order to get to his version of sex. In so doing, he completely by-passed me... because his version of sex never actually involved ME. It involved the version of me be wanted me to be... so no matter what I told him, it would fall flat, because he was never seeing ME, hearing ME. He just wanted a recipe, any recipe, that would get him to HIS ideal. (Honestly, I did the same thing to him, so it isn't just an HD/LD thing. We all do it to one another).
At the end of my M, when I actually accepted H exactly as he was, when I no longer focused on what he WASN'T being for me (my ideal version of him)... my anger was GONE.(Actually, at that point, we probably had the very greatest chance of having the M we both always said we wanted...)
I feel bad for doing that to him. I completely empathized with how he may have felt all those years, because I felt the exact same way....
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Getting back to what I would like. LFL H saying he wanted LFL to put her legs around him. That is something that used to happen to me but not since 1972. I miss it.
Again... what you want, what she isn't doing. I understand what you are saying... but what are you maybe NOT seeing in BB, exploring with her... that may in fact get the very thing you seek? Instead of being so focused on the goal... are you missing the very REAL process of what works for Lou/BB... not just Lou?
Is that any more clear?
ETA: I don't mean to single you out, Lou, you just happened to be in my example. I think we ALL do this, all the time...
Maybe there is no other way to do it... it's just something that has occurred to me, as I catch myself doing this very thing to others, all the time. It's humbling.
I remember when I was LD in my M, my xH constantly asked me what I liked, what I wanted, in order to have sex. He wanted to give me just that, in order to get to his version of sex. In so doing, he completely by-passed me... because his version of sex never actually involved ME. It involved the version of me be wanted me to be... so no matter what I told him, it would fall flat, because he was never seeing ME, hearing ME. He just wanted a recipe, any recipe, that would get him to HIS ideal. (Honestly, I did the same thing to him, so it isn't just an HD/LD thing. We all do it to one another).
I think it's even more basic than that. When I walked into my living room on a typical Friday night in my marriage, if I had looked at my 2bx as "any guy" I might run into in a bar, I would have immediately registered "not interested in sex with me." and moved along. In a relationship in which I was having sex fairly frequently, I would have registered "not interested in having sex with me right now." and moved along. It was only due to the lack of sex that I thought to try various arcane things and ask him "what he liked" in order to get sex. It's a sure sign of cr*ppy sex if you have to stop and ask someone if they like something. It's a sure sign of good sex if you can say with confidence "I know what you like, baby, and I'm gonna give it to you." Anyways, expecting somebody to be a mind-reader is always a losing bet.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Lou, if you perhaps spend so much time focusing on what BB ISN'T, so much time focusing on what it is you are not getting (your ideal, your fantasy), that you are actually missing something right in front of your face. Yes, I have thought about that too.
So what is there? What does BB offer and have?
Dogs, She likes all kinds of body rubs. If I do something along that line, I can cop a feel any time I want, if I don't linger, so she isn't anti touch like some women.
She has a narrow range of things she likes. If I stick to that range, she tires easily of what I do.
There is a connection between what some women on the forum say about being sensitive and me feeling maybe they and BB are picky.
Corri, what I need to do is more things I want to do and not worry about how BB might react. That is the part I foul up. Being too close to the problem and being concerned about what might go wrong. Of course that is my MO not wanting to do harm or make something worse.
About talking during sex? One thing I have to do is pick a subject that can't get turned into something BB has an opinion about and also something she can find fault with or doesn't like.
I almost don't talk more than 20 minuets a day with her because most of what she and I talk about, she gets on the "why it sucks or why someone did her wrong.
Our daughter might be moving to North Dakota in the spring. BB thinks it is because our D has some resentments against BB and that D is controlled by her H too much.
My take is her H has grandiose ideas but she wants to see what the area will do for her M and she liked the area. I don't see anything to do with our D wanting to spite BB.
It has happened before with other family members, so why am I surprised BB feels this way?
talking during sex Now if I talked dogs with BB, that works for a while, till I had enough of the "dogs are people too" talk.
I like dogs but have my limit as to humanizing dog behavior.
Talking about Vacations during sex........????????? Most likely why she won't go or her fear of cooties from bathrooms and motel bed coverings.
I know there is something we can talk about, just don't know what.
About talking, that is what I saw about the TV shopping channels. BB liked to hear the hosts talk. I thought the TV hosts were embellishing the product they were trying to sell. Lots of blue shy but for me no content or measurable facts were in the sales pitch.
I listened to one sales presentation for 20 minuets before I learned the computer had a 2ghz AMD processor with 512M of RAM, a 10GB hard drive, a 48X CDR, and a SVGA monitor.
BB goes for what I call fluff or what some people call showing concern. I go for what is measurable and usable to the masses.
Since BB isn’t buying from the TV shows any more, now she said she was taken by the host sales pitch. They lied about the products. No Joke, they did many times.
I will relate this back to talking with BB. If I say something, she has expectations. So my problem is "How to talk w/o creating an expectation." I don't want more obligations than I have.
BB having a boob and a half isn't a problem for me. Maybe too heavy of a topic but I still tell BB she turns me on.
Well she tells me she isn't sexy or she is too old to be sexy. I put her hand on my woody but then I am a typical male, over sexed.
I still agree with you, talking more would be something BB liked and would be me finding what is good about BB rather than what I want but am not getting.
I remember when I was LD in my M, my xH constantly asked me what I liked, what I wanted, in order to have sex. He wanted to give me just that, in order to get to his version of sex. Guilty!
I ask hoping to satisfy her wants or desires so our R is better, so I get more of what I want. She tells me she doesn't know of anything I can do except get rid of my stuff and business inventory, maybe a new house, maybe more dogs, maybe..... something I don't want to do.
Instead of being so focused on the goal... are you missing the very REAL process of what works for Lou/BB... not just Lou? OK, I will keep that in mind.
How does one do that when BB speaks mostly why OP are doing her wrong, when I see that BB does little things to make things better but big things that say prickly cactus ahead?
I don't mean to single you out, Lou, I am glad you did. I need a few examples and a few 2X4’s.
I wouldn’t mind going on the TV program “Wife Swap” to experience a different way to live. This forum is a mini-example of different ways to live. Much like a college level, self-help therapy group.
