Flipping the tortilla

[Laurie]

Dear Tostada,
I have just skimmed a few of your early entries and then moved to your situation here, so I apologize if I miss pertinent points.

My question - your W's need to convince you that you are "the wrong person for her" makes me wonder if she thinks you just "don't get it yet" (that she is through with the M). And, if so, what possible behaviors, conversations, questions, etc., may you be doing/saying that might be motivating her to make sure you know she is done?

Tostada, I am not assuming you are doing anything that could encourage her negative remarks, but I want to make sure this got thought through a bit. Thinking this through also might help you decide how to go a bit dark as well.

By the way, it sounds that you have definitely made some good changes that she noticed! Even though they haven't taken you where you want to go YET - it doesn't mean they won't have a visible, positive impact in the future, OK?

[Tostada]

thanks laurie for checking up on me. listening to was is very tough. I want my family together and her to see the light very badly.

the thing is...I cant pinpoint exactly what I have said or done at each moment. I know one time I asked her about not wearing her wedding ring and I got the "you're in denial" "you don't get it speech". "the sooner you accept this".."we will both be better off"

I just cant pinpoint what exactly it was at xmas the prompted her to say "I'm not the person for her, were done, I'm sorry" many times. she was also crying which I haven't seen much emotion out of her.

I guess what I don't believe is how I am all of a sudden not right for her anymore? I really believe these feelings are reactionary to OM in picture.

she says she has felt this way for a long time. one question I had for her that she didn't answer was if that was true, why didn't any of your friends or family tip me off or tell me how unhappy she was...answer is because she has only felt this way since this summer. she couldn't have faked happiness for this long. she is not capable of doing something she doesn't want to do. the timing of all these "feelings" line up with when she has spent time with OM.

maybe the "you don't get it" is provoking her behavior to "proove" it to me? and do so with mean behavior? so do I act detached like I get it? but I don't get it and don't want to.

I guess its possible that she is just done..but it seems like her emotions are wavering too much and I just don't see that there is truly a good reason for her to leave. she told me she was sone over and over that other night, but cozied up with me in bed and let me touch her..and touched and hugged back. not exactly behavior of someone that despises me.

[Laurie]

Dear Tostada,
I want for you to read these words you've written:

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maybe the "you don't get it" is provoking her behavior to "proove" it to me? and do so with mean behavior? so do I act detached like I get it? but I don't get it and don't want to.

IF your "I don't get it" behavior is possibly provoking her to be meaner and more adamant, what relationship goals are you making progress on by continuing the "don't get it" behavior? In other words, it sounds like it's pushing you toward D and doing nothing positive to keep your M together.

My heart goes out to you at this very, very crucial time, but I am concerned that your feelings about "I don't get it and don't want to" are strongly working against your marriage.

I am only guessing, but am thinking that your W is extremely aware that you don't believe her, that you think the OM is really the main issue, and/or if she is nice to you, you will point out that she must have SOME feelings for you or she wouldn't cuddle with you in bed. Again, I am only guessing...

If I am somewhat close, then your disbelief about her M stance more likely communicates to her that her feelings are not important to you - therefore she is not important to you. Only your feelings are and what you want is (from her perspective).

So, it is as if she is screaming it from the mountain tops to get you to hear her, believe her, and validate her. And, the longer you choose to not believe her, the more you could be convincing her that you won't be capable of ever hearing her - therefore, that justifies D in her mind even more so.

Tostada, Do you want to start nurturing this M with hope (from her point of view)? I strongly, strongly encourage you to really try to understand your W's feelings. The sooner you try, the more hope you offer for your M. Remember, you do not have to agree with her, but it is so important to sympathize and attempt to understand. Then, you will be telling her that SHE is important to you, as I believe you've been trying to communicate all of this time.

Your heart is so passionate to save this marriage, that is so amazing! Hold on to your passion and let's just adjust your approach to her to give her hope that you could truly be sensitive to her and care for her. I believe you can focus on that, Tostada!

[Tostada]

thankyou Laurie.

I think there is probably a lot of truth in what you are saying.

however...I have told her many times that I understand how she feels now, and I am not discounting that she is not happy. I guess my disagreement with her is how long she has felt this way. I have disagreed with her when she has rewritten our past, and she has admitted in doing so.

I really believe we had some moments this spring that proove she was in love with me then. thus..if we had some minor issues before, then some times this summer when we weren't together, to me...being together more and me showing appreciation to and for her are my answers. but she won't allow it now.

I learned very early to not tell her how she feels for me or that I can still sense it. I can, but I'm not mentioning it.

on this last cuddle episode, we didn't talk about it, nor did I mention anything about it to her.

it seems shes made up her mind to me. she has said it over and over and doesn't want to put any effort into it. it hurts her that its hurting me so much, but she feels this is best. she knows how I feel and that I want to try. I guess that's what hurts so badly is she has given up on me.

[Tostada]

well I just returned from my trip with my kids....

W drove up to the house as we arrived. she couldnt pick us up at the airport because she was at friends having dinner.

she hugged and kissed the kids relentlessly....I didnt even get a 'hi' until I said 'hi'....nice. I was invisible.

She then left to go to a neighbors party. I asked why no 'hi'? She said..it's over between us, nothing has changed for 5 months...we are just not right for each other. can we talk tomorrow. you need to think about whats best for the kids'

All I could answer was, 'no I cant talk, and I'd like to give this some more time.' she just shook her head.

Amazing...happy frickin new year. And..in her bedroom, she's reading 'Between boyfriends'...

I guess she just totally has her mind made up and I have no chance at this at all.

she hugged and kissed the kids relentlessly....I didnt even get a 'hi' until I said 'hi'....nice. I was invisible.

She then left to go to a neighbors party. I asked why no 'hi'? She said..it's over between us, nothing has changed for 5 months...we are just not right for each other. can we talk tomorrow. you need to think about whats best for the kids'

You need to understand this - It's pretty simple. Every single time you disagree with her, it cements her "We're not right for each other" thought process. So she didn't say hi first - Who cares? Does it really matter?

When she told you about it being over, you should just say 'okay - I think it is important to ensure that our kids are well cared for' and leave it at that. No arguing, no disagreeing, no trying to talk her out of it.

You seem to be stuck doing 'more of the same', which is you trying to talk her out of the way she feels. You really need to take the focus off her and put it on yourself.

If you can create a positive and agreeable environment with your W, then you'll find that things will improve greatly - When I gave up trying to talk my W around and just listening and validating, she started to agree with me on a lot of topics which were partially R related. She's not afraid to share most of her thoughts and feelings, because she's used to me not biting her head off or turning it against her. Nothing is really fixed, but it's night and day from the hostility that existed a few months ago.

[Tostada]

thanks Brit..

I think youre rignt...more of the same. How do I put the focus on myself? I have tried best I can to GAL, be with my kids, help around the house a ton more, be very nice to her and even her friends I dont like at all. I have had zero fluctuation in her goal, which is get me out of here.

I know...its hard though...when she says we arent right for each other..Its hard to answer that without disagreeing. She's so wrong.

What she says we 'arent right for each other' in my opinion are all fixable, if she'd let them be fixable with effort. But she's not willing to put out any effort. She has made up her mind.

Then...she said if I'm nice to you, you get the wrong idea. What kind of person is this? "between boyfriends"...ouch...she has really detached from me.

I really dont want to sit down and talk about my execution.

I think youre rignt...more of the same. How do I put the focus on myself? I have tried best I can to GAL, be with my kids, help around the house a ton more, be very nice to her and even her friends I dont like at all. I have had zero fluctuation in her goal, which is get me out of here.

Most of your GAL stuff is focused on your W - Go out and do something for yourself. Try a new hobby, play a sport or whatever. GALing isn't supposed to do anything to her goal. It's to help you cope and manage yourself independent of your W.

I know...its hard though...when she says we arent right for each other..Its hard to answer that without disagreeing. She's so wrong.

You think she's wrong. She thinks she's right. Who cares? How has telling her that she is wrong been working for you so far?

Someone said "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy".

What she says we 'arent right for each other' in my opinion are all fixable, if she'd let them be fixable with effort. But she's not willing to put out any effort. She has made up her mind.

Like I said, every time you disagree with her a big "We're so different" sign flashes in her head.

Then...she said if I'm nice to you, you get the wrong idea. What kind of person is this? "between boyfriends"...ouch...she has really detached from me.

She's a WAW - Confused, hurting, trying to find a outlet and a way to cope. She bought a book, and she is probably reading it. It doesn't really change anything.

You really need to back off and stop fighting her every step of the way - It's just going to make it easier for her to dig a hole and throw you in it.

[Tostada]

Oh I have done a ton GAL for myself...I have been hanging out with friends a lot more, working out, doing things by myself...I have also done stuff that I should have been doing all along, such as helping more around the house and appreciating W...

I really do have a ton of passion for her. It hurts incredibly to hear what she's saying.

Telling her she's wrong has not been working at all, of course..I have tried immensly lately to just listen, nod my head and say I understand what you are saying. I cant say I understand what you are feeling.

OM is a symptom of what we were lacking, communication and effort between us.

When I look back at the past couple months, every activity, everything she has been doing, I have been doing on the other side. We have been doing the same things, just with different people. In that aspect, I dont think we are that different. I wish she could see this.

[Lanzo]

Hi Tostada,

If I may chip in with a comment.

After months of listening to my W telling me it was all over, I did the mother of all 180's and told her I was done with the M, I told her we could piece together a new R, but as far as I was concerned this M was done. I remember hearing the words come out of my mouth and a then little voice in my head saying "are you mad, WTF you telling her that for". It was tough for me to do but since then I've seen the biggest positive change in W's attitude towards me.

So in your case your W still sees you don't get it, so you need to make a bigger effort to show her you do, I'm sure you'll find a way, you'll have to if you want to move forward.

Take care