A personal journey through Karen's eyes

[karen1]

Dom,

My H loves church, hates the hierarchy. We attend church every Sunday come h@ll or high water. If we miss there is a darn good reason. You weren't posting when Honeypot was but her H had a similar love for the church and he had a similar disregard for her interest in sex. I would have to find a priest who had the right touch. Thing is - I don't respond that well to a lot of priests myself. I have faith in God, not so much the church itself. KWIM?

Miss IC - if anyone could be forgiven for thoughts of Tahiti right now, it is you. I cannot entertain too many of these kinds of thoughts or I might just do it.

Karen

[LuckyMe!]

Hi Karen,

I seem to be in the same position as your husband right now, with one exception. I would like to start the physical side of our relationship back up, but my W is in your position, I believe. What could your H do to evoke your interest at this point? What should he not do?

[Dom R]

Dom,

My H loves church, hates the hierarchy. We attend church every Sunday come h@ll or high water. If we miss there is a darn good reason.

interesting. and wierd.

Would be interesting to know what exactly is his reason for going, though. Whether he respects the bible, and/or he respects particular priests but not the ones in your parish now.

by "hates the hierarchy", i'm wondeirnt if you get that impression, becuase he hates the layers of hierachy in the Catholic church as a whole, or whether he just dislikes the specific priests he's been around the last decade or so.

and/or whether he respects priests in general yet dislikes the "higher ups".

[karen1]

Dom,

H has had many a run in with priests. He likes some, dislikes others. He understands the need for hierarchy but hates the way the church uses it to hide things they shouldn't, punish people with legitimate points and such. He would tell you that it works the same in any large organization (government, military) but the thing with the church is that they get to hold salvation over your head too. H is a big believer, reads the bible frequently and needs to go to church because (a) God says so and (b) To be with other believers and (c) For the children to get exposure to the life and principles of the church (he's HUGE on first communion and confirmation).

Lucky,

What would H have to do? Get naked (Oh, that's right he sleeps naked). Ok - he would have to roll over and take me in his arms, kiss me and then proceed with sexual activity. Then if he wanted me to believe that he gave a sh!t about me he would do it again in a day or so. In between a couple of kisses a day, a butt pat or two and he would be there. It is so easy. I'm angry at him but it isn't terminal.

Karen

[Dom R]

Dom,

H has had many a run in with priests. He likes some, dislikes others. He understands the need for hierarchy but hates the way the church uses it to hide things they shouldn't, punish people with legitimate points and such.

errr.. i'm not understanding that last bit. he "hates the way the church punishes people with legitimate points"?

i infer from the rest of your post, that he does attend church, "as mandated by the Catholic church", ie: once a week?

[Lillieperl]

DOM, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?!?!?




Okay... just had to get that out...

[karen1]

Dom,

Has to do with a lot of stuff from seminary. Some of which I know the details from, some of which I don't. Let's just say that the church does not ordain people who don't agree with their policies or if they do they position those people right under their thumbs.

Karen

[Dom R]

Your husband... WENT TO SEMINARY SCHOOL?!! ie: studied to be a priest once?

ok, how about spilling some of the details on what you do know, about his "disagreements". It could actually be relevant to your situation.

[Lillieperl]

Dom, read here from September, 2007.

I don't snoop because of personal ethics and the reality that it probably wouldn't hold the answers anyway. Anything I might uncover would only hold a small part of the story. What if I did find gay porn or porn of particular kink or whatever? Maybe it is simply fantasy material, maybe it was a one time look see or maybe it represents a real unfulfilled wish. What if I uncover a PA or an EA? OK - this is the one thing that might actually help to know but I feel that this is actually the least likely thing.

Is H gay? Possibly but probably not. If he is he doesn't think so. He experimented once years ago and didn't get an E. He left seminary for a girl, because he didn't like the church's structure and because he hated that all the clearly gay priests were not celibate but they expected everyone else to be (hypocrisy). Is it possible that he is somewhere along the sexual continuum that isn't exactly straight? Probably. He may have some gay type fantasies or whatever. Is this necessarily a deal breaker? I don't know.

I think it is equally likely that he is hiding some other sexual secret - porn addiction, past sexual abuse, a particular kink, severe madonna/whore complex, severe issues related to inadequate sexual development. Is this a deal breaker? Again I don't know.

If there were a sexual secret that we could bring out and deal with things might work much better.

H is steryotypically masculine, Alpha, refused to see Brokeback Mountain because he shies away from specific references to gay sex but will laugh at movies that involve gay humor, laughs because a lot of his relatives thought he was gay because he waited so long to marry, is a terrible dresser, not Metrosexual at all, has a gay best friend, etc... As Lil said - what makes someone gay is preferring to have sex with someone of the same sex and nothing else. My H is probably too puritanical to fit in with most gays even if he is gay - he HATES casual sexuality in anyone. I have seen him clearly attracted to another woman on a couple of occasions (not many) and he kept art from one exgf in the house FOREVER until I pushed the issue.

Why don't I let it be known that I would like a good screw? Several reasons (a)we aren't on birth control and need to discuss future procreation - I'm a no and he's a "if it happens it happens", (b)don't want a pity screw and (c)the bigger issues loom larger than my libido right now and (d)I wanted to see what would happen if I just quit trying and here we are.

This is from April, 2005

Funny, my H has a major sweet tooth also. I also think he may have given that same answer. Why? He has been accustomed to depriving himself of sex over the years - seminary, dating with religious values that prohibit sex, and a personality that places sex at the bottom of the list of what is important. And I really do understand that you only want to be WANTED in your marriage and that every other part of marital happiness somehow comes in second to this. I feel that way too. I feel that the desire to be a good partner in the other areas flows from sexual bondedness. That I want to keep a nice house, be a good partner etc... because HE is the person that I am sexually bonded to. I want him and that is part of my motivation for the other things. KWIM? It does ick me out to have to request touch. It does make me mad and make it less sexy. I do feel slighted but I just can't seem to get out of this dilemma without communication and as you said, confrontation with my own demons.

The thing I keep realizing is that for my H it doesn't work that way. I think that sexuality meets his physical needs first and emotional ones second and that those physical needs can be sublimated to an extent that makes them easy to ignore.

This is from September, 2005

Husband's FOO:
Kid from a messy divorce (8 or so at the time). Mom had a some boyfriends and one very long term fiancee. Never remarried. She is a nice, well meaning but miserably depressed lady. Dad remarried and was only interested in the kids to a minor degree. Both Mom and Dad had plenty nasty to say about each other. They had married due to an unplanned pregnancy in the first place.

Major leftover issue from this is that his family thought his brother was the handsome one, the smart one, the athletic one etc... Brother screwed up his life, was very depressed and committed suicide a few years ago. H is an entreprenuer, a family man, a community volunteer and recently became an athlete too. All the things his brother was credited with. His Dad died a year before the brother. Neither parent has particularly acknowledged his accomplishments. He is very sensitive to being told (even if it is put very gently) that he isn't doing a good job or is failing at something.

Raised Catholic. Went to seminary when he graduated from High School as a means to higher education and to serve God. He has a very strong faith. He wanted to help people too. He had little experience with girls and so he didn't really see the whole purity issue as a problem. He figures that his family just thought he was gay or something.

He was there for two years. Did well academically but had problems with the powers that be. He isn't a very good rule follower. He is a natural leader and doesn't do well when his leaders are hypocrites. Finally, he met a girl. Didn't have sex with her but opened himself up to the possibility of a different vocation - marriage to a woman rather than the church. Left there for a regular university and graduate program in Organizational Psych. (I am a Counselor by trade and am the Deputy Dir for a non-profit that serves the mentally ill.)

Workouts - on a two week rest which will be followed by probably 3 hours/week or so of training spread over 3 or 4 days. We go to the OBX of North Carolina in a couple of weeks. I can guarantee the my sexual camel of a husband is thinking to himself "Great. We can have sex then."

Now it has been about 2 1/2 weeks. I think H was interested last night but then he let his frustration with our teenagers derail his interest. I have seen signs of life. I could have gotten something started if I wanted but I have gotten weary of having to always be the one. I am not the only person responsible for our SL. I like to be pursued too.

One of the things that my H likes about me is that I bring heat to the R. He likens it to that scene in the American President where Michael Douglas is talking about taking their relationship slow and blah.... and Annette Benning comes out of the bathroom in only his white button down. He says that is something I would do. And it probably is.

From October, 2005

No, H is not gay. He isn't a "typical" guy either. Many people have assumed he was gay because he isn't typical but he actually left seminary in part because so many men were engaged in gay affairs (with adults not kids) and still considered themselves to be fit to pastor a church. He felt it was hypocritical bs.

He isn't at all homophobic though. He has a gay friend who comes to all our family activities and H is not at all afraid to hug him or be affectionate or anything. He feels the church needs to get a grip on the reality of homosexuality and that if they did so maybe people wouldn't be so prone to carrying on behind the scenes. I also don't think he was abused. I do think he was devalued within his family, that for some reason his sexuality was blunted (faith reasons, esteem reasons whatever) for many years and that as a result he is sexually immature. Does that make sense to you? Not immature in that "tee hee" kind of way but immature in the "Wow, a naked woman WTF do I do now?" kind of way. He didn't have sex for the first time until his 30's. There were only two women before me and neither for very long.

Anyone who wants to can search... it's really easy.

[Dom R]

Thanks for digging that up, Lillie.
I dont have the time that I normally have, to go over posts during the holidays.
I'm also unfortunately missing a bit of context from posts, 'cause I dont have as much time to read them thoroughly sorry.



Anyways, what I glean from that, is:

- he doesnt like the "coverup" mentality of the church
- he doesnt like the hypocricy, of gay priests
- he has a very strong Christian and biblical foundation for his beliefs.

Now, what I'm hoping Karen will reply to, is:

what is his CURRENT relationship with the church, God, and the bible?

I just re-read posts, and noted that Karen did actually specify that he still goes every week. The question in my mind after that would be, does he actually pay attention to the sermons?

Erm.. goingn to make a new post, to clear up the mess that is this post