True, could be a million reasons she didn't answer. but there's only one reason she hands the phone to our 11 yr old son when it's me calling. She's avoiding me!
it's ok with me though. I won't let that get to me. I won't take it personally.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
First, a summary; I am lonely. Really lonely. I'm a family guy, yet I'm out of my house. My W is in the house with my 4 kids. All of my money goes to the mortgage, and the mortgage on another house, in the town we moved from 18 months ago, 2 weeks after I found out about her affair with my best friend. we tried to sell that house but the market stinks, and we over-improved it. So no buyers. As a result, I have no income to spend and I've been living at a friend's house for the past 4 months. I hate my situation.
When we moved we weren't really sure what the financials were going to be, but we discussed her getting a job to help out. Well the money is tight, and she hasn't gotten a job, and as someone on this board put it, I am "financing her affair". In other words, I pay while she continues to live as she likes.
The most recent dust-up comes because we have a person interested in paying us to rent the old house, which is now vacant. Initially I thought that was a good idea, then I went to check on the house. It was like a dream. I walked through the house I worked so hard on, all the kids rooms just as we left them 18 months ago. Afterwards, I refused to agree to sign the rental lease, thinking I would like to consider keeping that house and possibly return to it. Maybe even soon. It would be a nice place for me and the kids.
My W hates this idea! She's really jacked! Here's what she wrote to me:
Quote:
I am planning to meet with my attorney in the next week to discuss this with her so I know exactly what my rights here are, but I have a pretty good idea that you can't just decide to up and quit your job and move to [our old town]. I know for sure you can't take the kids from me. She has been on vacation and I believe she is getting back later this week. I know that you have made some quick decisions about this, i.e. not renting the house as we had planned and wanting to move back, but you can't make those decisions for me or the kids. Personally, I think you are acting extremely irrationally about all of this. Why would you want to go back to [our old town]? Don't you remember wanting to get away from your family? Don't you remember complaining about how miserable your family was? Don't you remember thinking that [our new area] was a better place to raise kids for a multitude of reasons??? Don't you remember that the reason you wanted to move to [our new town] was for job opportunities at [your company]??? There were no jobs in [our old town] that didn't involve tremendous travel. The economy has gotten progressively worse there since we have left. Don't you remember that just one month ago you still loved it here when we had this same discussion? I still think all of that is true. I don't see much draw at all to going back there. I think you are acting purely on emotion at this point and you are not thinking at all about what is best for the kids and that is why there is no way I think this is a good time to go back to [our old town]. Here, the kids are happy and well adjusted, I'm happy, your job is going well, the schools are great, we have a better quality of life than we'd have there -- even if we're divorced. We'll still be divorced in [our old town], [Sir]. That part won't get better, but the rest of it is so much better here. Let's really try to think of the kids first. They need stability. They do not need to be shlepped back across the country on this emotional whim of yours. Sorry. I'm not going for that.
Overall, you can see the tenor of the conversation. It's tense, it's heated, there are lots of !!! and ????. Let me tell you, it isn't like this for any of our other interactions, in-person or otherwise. Some of my other thoughts on this.
I never tried to "take the kids from her" or threatened same. That is her own paranoid fear.
"you can't make those decisions for me or the kids". She really doesn't get the whole concept of divorce. We still have to talk all the time, it's just that we'll be operating from a position of separation rather than togetherness. She seems to think she can decide what she wants and I am her captive. I need to retain my job. I can't make the unilateral decisions but she can.
I haven't threatened to "quit my job." I asked my employer and they'll be happy to employ me from my old town, as before. Also, I talked to another company, and I have another opportunity there, with little travel. Also I have contacts in the old town. Finding a job won't be hard. It's not true that there are no job opportunities. There are plenty for a smart, educated person.
as for her calling me "irrational" - I want a place, a home. I want a place where I can spend time with my children. I told her this. It's as if she didn't even hear it. (She rejects my feelings, over and over. This is a pattern from her that has continued since 16 months ago or so.)
"the reason you wanted to move" - her words make it sound like it was my idea to move. She said I complained about my family. She alleged I wanted to "get away from my family" (meaning, my siblings). None of this is true. I didn't want to get away from my family, at all. We get along. We're close. Their kids and my kids are "best friends." It's family. I spent tons of time with my siblings, and my kids with theirs. Everyone always enjoyed it. her statement that I wanted to "get away" is just wrong. It's revisionist. She wanted to "get away".
she's right that I do like the new area. There's lots to like! It's just that it hasn't worked out financially. I cannot afford the life I want to lead, here. I could afford it in the old town. as a single parent, I could use the support network that is still in the old town for me. I know neighbors and friends there. And of course my siblings.
the schools were waaaay better in the old town. She knows this.
I guess what I am asking for is, advice on how to handle this response. Keep in mind my goal is still to reconcile with my W and kids.
Some options:
leave it to the lawyers. This feels antagonistic to me, not what I want. maybe I have to do it.
tell her openly how I feel. (I hate this situation. I miss the kids. I want my family back!) Ask her again to stop seeing OM. This feels like it is absolutely against every DB principle I know.
enlist a neutral third party to discuss it. maybe a mediator.
If I could swing this into her agreeing to allow me to move back into the house, with her and the children, it would be a huge step. Even if the initial stated goal was just to allow me to spend more time with the kids under our current financial situation.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
I'm having trouble seeing what there is to discuss. There is no way she's moving back there with you. I don't think she can stop you from moving back there right now. Her letter sounded like she is trying to accuse you of all the things she's done, irrationality, making decisions based on emotions.... She projecting her actions onto you.
I'm thinking that to protect yourself, the lawyers are going to be the way to go. I would not be surprised if she gets a lot less in that deal than she expects. She might find out you've been pretty reasonable all along, and she's been able to go along for the ride. It might be time to get everything on paper, before you lose any leverage you have. I guess my answer is that you need to know what's what, and probably need a lawyer to get that pinned down. Then you can decided what to do.
Hey, happy 2008 to all! And Good luck to all DBers in 2008! Strength to you all as you stand for Marriage!
DH, thanks for the tip.
here is the latest in my saga....
Saturday I spoke with W on the phone, about my need to spend more quality time with the children. I asked for any ideas she had. (I have an idea - she could invite me back to the house, but I didn't want to suggest it. I want it to come from her). During that call W had a mini-tirade, regarding our marriage and what torture it was for her. I didn't bring up our relationship, she did. Pronounced it "Toxic" and so on. I was very empathetic mostly, though corrected her on some things she got factually wrong, like the motivations for us relocating, etc. (She said I had to move for my job but actually, we "together" discussed moving and made a joint decision to move. It doesn't hurt that incidentally, the discussion about moving house was a joint conversation where we were partners, discussed it together, etc.) Also I was mostly not defensive. When she raised her voice for an extended harangue that went on a little too long, I hung up on her. Too bad. I was interested in listening but not in getting yelled at.
I called back and left a message saying, I'm sorry this is so upsetting but we need to talk about it calmly and rationally. No call back as yet!
Went for a hike yday with the 4 kids. It was a nice day, I thought maybe a good way to start the year. I also had my godchild with me, a lovely lass of 4. So 5 kids all together. Picked up my 4 at the house where W stays.
My youngest D was wearing a new coat, one I did not recognize. "Where'd you get that?" I asked. Turns out it's a hand-me-down from the daughter of the OM. Oh, lovely. It had been in storage a while, and now it fits so my youngest is wearing it. Goody.
This got me thinking and somehow I concluded it would be good to point out to W that OM is dating other women. (I had learned this while speaking to OM's wife during the holidays, because I know her, and because we had both gone through a tough year. My understanding was that W and OM were still a "thing" though he is 3 states away.) Anyway, W responds very matter-of-factly, "I know" and then recites details of OM's romantic involvement with his new GF. Her name, how long they've been dating, etc.
Nine months ago, this was the man W loved so deeply, had a inner connection to, etc etc. When OM divorced his W, he stated "I don't love you, I love [Sir's Wife]". ok, well I guess that is a good sign that he has moved on, if I can believe it. I tend to believe it because I cannot see why OM would go for W, a mother of 4, three states away, when he has bar-bunnies to entertain him right near his own home.
So I will take the OM's new romantic directions as a small positive for my relationship with my W. On the other hand she is still talking to him. "I told you he will always be my friend," she reminded me. For now I will accept this.
I also pointed out that I was aware that W is still seeing OM - they visit with each other. Not sure what that is about, given they are separated by 3 states and not a romantic item. But whatever. Anyway, she let that pass without confirming or denying it. I then offered, "you know, if you put half the effort into your family, that you put into your relationship with OM, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in." (I know this is against all DB principles (Do not pursue) but my "maintain distance" approach wasn't really working, I felt. I got this vibe that she thought I did not care. )
She responded with a repitition of my crimes in the marriage - angry, abusive, etc. She then questioned, given this exchange we just had, whether I was mentally fit to go on a hike with the 5 kids? I told her (cheerily) that I was going to have fun! and I left with the kids on the hike.
When I got back from the hike, W had left a folder with a 2-page "Dear John" note, something she had written 6 weeks ago, when she filed D papers, explaining why she was doing it. She had written it (typed it) but never sent it. Now she was giving it to me, with a little handwritten note: "I guess it is finally the right time to give this to you." I'm not sure what is special about NOW, as opposed to then.
In the letter, she described her grievances, in general. Bottom line: I was an angry and emotionally abusive man, never happy, always trying to control her. And only now that I am out of the house does she see the light. Remember, this is from 6 weeks ago, before we had our pleasant (intimate) Christmas Eve, and before W visited with OM.
In the letter she also expressed lots of fear. She said she was scared I would hurt her or kill her or myself or the OM. Scared that I would "spin this all to make her look like the bad guy." But (the letter said) she was resolved to file D papers anyway, despite her fears. To me this is all unjustified fear... I've never talked about killing anyone, not even in a manner of speaking - like "oh, I could just kill him!" I had heard separately from another friend who has spoken to OM that OM is concerned I would "kill him." Again, I harbor no such desires or intentions. I have never said "I want to kill X" in the past, even as a habit of speaking, when I felt injured or wronged. W and OM are cooking this fear up on their own.
Looking back, her fears were unfounded... But it does show W's state of mind.
Incidentally, I do recall a dinner, the last dinner I had at the house with W and the kids, before D papers and locks being changed, where W said of someone who had "flipped her off" in traffic - those people don't deserve to be alive. I was taken aback by this, and in response to my raised eyebrows, she re-iterated her position - as far as she was concerned, they don't deserve to live. Wow! I let the matter drop.
Anyway, accompanying the letter she included a list of counselors that offer Domestic Violence programs, with a couple of them circled, suggesting I try them. One of them was noted, "highly recommended by a woman I know whose husband went through this and changed." (This is a woman she met through a battered women support group. Is there a leap from "Emotional Abuse" to Battered Women? I don't know. Anyway, the woman and her H are now reconciled I think).
----
My take on all this:
{*]Woohoo! Super! She is reaching out to me. Yes, I instigated the whole thing by bringing up OM. But she responded by stating her complaints with me. This I take as GOOD. And, what's more, she included a suggestion for getting help - going to domestic violence counseling. leave aside for a moment whether I *agree* or acknowledge that I am a perpetrator of DV. The point is she is making a suggestion of me. Great.
I still feel like she is not shouldering her share of the responsibility for our R. For "us" to work out, she needs to pick up her end of the rope. But in any case, she is not entirely disengaged from the R.
I spoke with an attorney who advised me that 1. going to a DV program is not an admission of guilt, and 2. would not reflect badly upon me in a custody dispute. So I am going to inquire, and maybe enroll in one of them.
My first reaction was "Perpetrator of Domestic Violence??!?!!" but I put aside my ego. My attitude is, whatever it takes. What's the worst that could happen? Maybe I will learn that my conduct in the marriage really was emotionally abusive. I never physically hurt anyone, we jointly stopped spanking the kids 8 years ago. I've never struck my wife, or threated (neither verbally nor physically implied threats with a raised hand, etc). But maybe my other conduct was no good. I still am inclined to think this is more of the same, more avoidance on her part and unwillingness to accept responsibility. But... I'm willing to expend the effort. And maybe my willingness to go to DV counseling will allow her to see I am willing to change, maybe provide the opening for her to accept some responsibility on her own.
I am hopeful that this is the start of her opening up. I have been hopeful before, and was disappointed, but I remain hopeful, even now.
I sent her a short response saying,
Quote:
Thanks for the note. I read the papers you left in my car but I haven't had time to think about it completely yet. I see you were in a bad situation, and the marriage was unhealthy for you. I regret that this was true for you; in my true heart it is not how I wanted to be for you. If you like, we can talk more about it.
I am going to have to be thoughtful in responding further to her letter. I think maybe next week I will have had time to put together a couple sentences further validating her concerns and stating that I am looking into, or maybe starting, the DV counseling.
At the same time my attorney is drafting a letter on my behalf to start the "temporary orders" conversation about financial matters. The upshot is that all of my paycheck goes to her, currently, and none to me. Because I am also out of the house, I don't see the kids. In the temp orders, we'll need to split the money more equitably, which will allow me to rent a place, but will mean some financial hardship for her (moving house, getting a job, etc). So I am trying to be nice on the relationship side and let my attorney be firm on the legal/logistics side.
No real questions here, but if any of you has any insight to offer, I'd appreciate it, as always.
I feel like I am living the PMA, but not sure if it is blind-stupid optimism, or just good old fashioned positive thinking.
To all, if you've read this far, thank you. Stay well.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
W is aware of my profile on an online dating site. She seems none too happy about it. Like offended, even. It is almost humorous. She has an affair, and files for divorce, but when I put my photo on a dating site, she's offended.
This, for me, is a "moving on with life" step although I am not actually dating. Other "moving on" things are: I sent out a Christmas card with a photo of me and the kids. I took the kids to Christmas Mass w/o wife. I bought the xmas gifts for the kids. etc.
ps: Do I write too much? Have I scared everyone off?
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Look carefully at what you are doing. I think you are still trying to control her, or at least that is what she thinks. Back off. And, what ever you do, do for you. Don't do it for a reaction from her, or to manipulate her. It won't work.
The biggest thing was telling her about OM dating. Also, putting a profile on the dating site. If you are not dating, the purpose was to get a reaction from her? Maybe I misinterpreted, but that's what it felt like. Other than that, I think it was just the tone. I just get the feeling that what you are doing, you are doing to get her to do something, not because it is the right thing for you to do.
Telling her about OM Dating - yes that was a biggee. But if she didn't know it, and if she was dating him, it was worth knowing. Turns out I was wrong, she is not "dating" OM any longer, or so she says, and she knows about his GF.
Ok, I got that one. I'll take credit for that. I knew I was skirting the line when I mentioned it to her. A few months ago, OM was her "Soulmate", her destiny. Now he is dating. It's a big change. Now she knows we both are aware of it.
The dating site thing: I did not register there to get a rise out of my wife. I registered on the advice of friends with the intention to meet people. I'd just as soon keep that from W's eyes. But after I registered I decided I wasn't ready, and I haven't done anything with it. I am still really lonely. But I still don't want anyone else.
Ok, DH, it sounds to you like I am trying to manipulate her. Like I want to get her to DO SOMETHING. Yes. Here's the thing: I want her to come back to me, to give our marriage a chance. It will be good for me if she does. I want her to know that I still want her back.
Am I trying to "get her to do something"? YES. I, like many people on this board, am trying to get her to stop this divorce. Only she can do that.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
