All Hope is lost/Help - Part 2

[Evie]

I've had a further text from H which says:

'U have said some really shitty things to me - 2do with the boys, girls, my job etc etc.
I left b/c it wasn't right between us - which u agreed to. I MOVED OUT not you, its me who lives in a shoe box & me who has to listen to our answer machine b/c u don't pick up yr phone when i want to speak to the boys. It was me who told the boys and you just sat there crirising me in front of them.
ALL of this b/c we dont get on - remember it takes two. Think of the very very hurtful things you've said to me & think how you've missed the boys this week - as every week for me is like this one when im not on holiday. You haven't got a bloody clue'

In my defence, i didn't criticise him in front of the boys, I sat there and didn't say anything, except to say to the boys that this wasn't what mummy wanted.

The answer machine is for the business mainly, so I keep the door to the office shut so I can't here the phone and I can't always pick up my mobile b/c i'm always really busy. All the more reason then to make arrangements to phone at certain times.

I did say some horrible things to him to goad him to try and talk to me, to try and put right what i could see was going wrong, but he would never open up and communicate. I'm afraid i was very sarcastic and belittling to him. He hates confrontation and would run away rather than face what was wrong.

I want to reply to this text and would appreciate any advice on how to handle it correctly.

Thanks for reading

E
xx

[Evie]

thought I might say something like this:

'I understand ...I agree I said things i'm not proud of & I apologise..I tried to goad a response b/c we weren't communicating. Your right it does take two & I accept that. I don't not answer the phones on prupose, maybe it would be good idea to agree mutually convienient time to call?'

I think some coomunication is better than none. It sounds like he is angry with me and still has some resentments and i'm keen to respond, but want to do it DBingly correct.

Please any advice?

e

[Jen_Jam]

Jen - How quickly or what response did you get from H when you did the lack of sympathy? Was he reaching out to you as well?

Well - I certainly didn't get a quick response! My H was in MLC land, fed up with "responsibilities" like having to keep the house clean, having to realise it's not a good idea to go out and splurge £1000 on a new amplifier when the credit card bill has £4000 on it, he even got annoyed that he couldn't go out and get drunk then get up fine the next morning like he could when he was 18.
BUT - it did two things:
1. I felt a LOT better about myself. I had done all the talking, and the sympathy, and I had already stated if I could help I would, but I wasn't going to push him to let me help him (a lot of what he had to deal with he had to do alone)
2. It did help pull him out, but it took a while, but the first signs I noticed were I could see he was thinking ... these were tiny signs. I'm such a "fixer" that for me to step back and say I was only going to help IF i was asked was a big 180 for me. 180's are VERY powerful - i've done them and I've been on the end of them. But they don't get immediate results, cos if someone changes you always exepct them to revert back, it's only consistent change that convinces.

So, to sum up it wasn't a magic cure but it did set some wheels in motion. To give you my timeframe, I think I stopped the sympathy in Summer 2006, BUT H had said at that time he didn't want a D, but didn't see how we could be happy together. I went into depression in October 2006 and didn't really come out of it until the next summer (this year). H had already recommited to the M, but I didn't feel as if he was really there until late summer this year. So if I were to date it I would say it took a year. Wish it could be quicker, but the sad fact is that a magic cure which works in a flash is very rare. I wish it weren't so, but consistency and patience are key in DB'ing.

[Jen_Jam]

OK, going to try and have a take on your H's text as well.

Oh dear, yes he is angry but it sounds like he hates the situation as well, but he created part of it by moving out, but then when he moved out he was probably in the mindset of "it hurts to stay and it hurts to leave". Something has to change and it sounds like maybe he has no idea what needs to change in your M in order for you to be happy with each other. IOW, sounds liek he is only seeing a bleak picture. Don't worry about this, a lot of WAS's only see the black in life (remember the Fast Show - with that character Johnny who if he heard the word black would run off repeating it then go into a mad fit? - my H could seem like that at times)

so - maybe some empathy with him will help - it seems like the DB advice of "be less availabe" isn't working here. Remember "do what works". But also - he is angry, if you get angry too (or seem like you are) then this will add fuel to a fire.

OK - maybe if you asked him to state out clearly to you what he wants? He needs to be very specific and that is hard for people to do. He does need a reply to this, some useful phrases I can think of are "this is a difficult situation for both of us", "it's not my intention to hurt you", "I'm sorry for my part in creating this situation", "I do not want to argue with you", "let's take things very slow and easy for both of us as we are both hurting".

If you can form an approach to him where you approach him as part of the solution, not as the problem, this may help. With a kind of "what do you want, tell me and I'll do all I can to accommodate that". if he continues to be angry you can always state calmly that you don't want to argue and maybe the conversation should take place when things are less heated? (ie, a polite way of saying to him "I'm not going to put up with you having a go at me, p*** off until you've calmed down, THEN I'll talk)

I hope others will chime in here too - in my sitch my H rarely got angry with me, so i may not have the best advice here.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Dis,

Here are a few ideas/lines/poss replies. See what feels right for you, if any.

"I've had a lot to think about. If I could do things over, I'd do many things differently. I've changed for the better and for that, I'm grateful. However, despite our marital challenges, it was solely your decision to leave the marriage. It may take two to have problems in the marriage, but it only takes one person to end it."

"I'm sorry your life right now isn't all great, but for me the pain of your rejection is still fresh and raw..." "This isn't a competition for who hurts more now"

"let's not revise the marital history too much, it prevents growth and moving on in the long run. The truth is, you wanted out. I wanted to work on the marriage. You quit, I stayed."
OR "Maybe you're right and our R was hopelessly damaged. But still, I wanted to get through it together and you chose to leave, not me."

LOOKING FORWARD to new boundaries that are clearly established and fair to both. And communicated. Let the boys answer the phone if he calls and they're available and willing. You don't have to answer but don't keep them from talking to him or you'll lose out in the long run. Just remove yourself from the picture and let him have the kids to himself. Your presence will be missed and your absence noticed. If it isn't, that would suck but surely sticking yourself into the sitch when you're asked not to, makes it worse. Back off again.

He's defending himself. That's not great. Do NOT argue with him about his choices. That makes you a "parent' attacking his choices and that forces him to defend the choices, instead of looking fairly at the choices HE made. Don't defend yourself with a point by point rebuttal. His memory is NOT the same as yours no matter what you tell him now. It's crazy but true. Defending yourself does nothing to show you've changed...

Let that inner voice of his speak up but it'll be drowned if YOU keep piping up arguing with him or using that "parental" voice asking "why? why?" THAT question almost ALWAYS triggers defensive responses. So
keep all this in mind when you choose how to respond to him.

good luck, and don't worry about the nasty things HE says to you. Just own what you said and take it back or apologize, specifically but no more than twice. Then drop it and if he brings it up again, say you apologized and won't do it again, and what else is there to say? HE needs to own what he has said and DONE....leaving you and the kids says A LOT...those are actions of his and whatever regrets he has are GOOD news for you. Yeah, the grass ain't so green out there, (I read that the "grass is greener...where you water it the most...")

Let him discover these things that are obvious to you and us. He has to do it himself. As far as OM are concerned...first off, it is none of his business. Don't bother answering him on that. Seriously, it's weird. Maybe it's jealousy, which means you should be mysterious. Maybe he wants to feel less guilt but I doubt that you telling him you're offended and hurt and NOT interested in OM is going to cause him more or less guilt. Just makes him feel burdened more, which isn't good for you. Don't guilt him because it backfires every time. You can laugh it off or say "Yeah, I really really need another R right now and so do the kids..."
Tell him, if you must, that you're working on you right now and enjoying the time to focus and get "centered" on your own priorities and growth and make it sound appealing and upbeat to be you living YOUR life....when you get around to it, of course OM will be there for you, if YOU want. For now, your hands are full with lots of good things in your full life. hope this helps.
j-

[Evie]

thank you Jen & 25 yrs, your advice is very much appreciated.

I will re-read your advice and form a text to send to him.

I have h a text this morning, from what you have both adviced I think i've said the right thing.

I said I understand, i agreed i had said things i wasn't proud of apologised for all the hurt i've caused him. I said I didn't not answer the phones on purpose and maybe it would be a good idea to agree mutually convienient times to call each other.

Later I'll follow it up with both your advice.

Like you say he sounds confused, but at least he is thinking. I had no idea he was harbouring so much resentment and anger towards me. DO you think he will see my changes? What I learnt last night was to not react in a knee jerk way to his anger, which i did. I need to remain calm.

Thanks so much for posting today, i'm so very grateful to hear you advice.

Love

E x

[Jen_Jam]

E - your text sounds perfect and I for one think you've had the right reaction. Big pat on your back to you!

Keep posting - we are all here for you.

[Evie]

Thanks J - nice to know i'm on the right track.

It seems like some communication from me works, but I need to bear in mind what and how I say things, to remember the DB rules and to bear in mind if what i'm about to do will it bring me closer to my goal.

H was ill with a bad stomach upset on the night all the above happened, whether it was a bug or whether he had got himself worked up I don't know, but he was up and skiing yesterday.

I sent another follow up text to H yesterday, it was a mixture of advice from both of you J & 25yrs, hope you don't mind.

H had txt me midday so it was in a way a good opener, here it is:

Sounds like you've had a great day! Your text last night gave me alot too think about. If I could do things over i'd do many things differently. I don't want toohurt you anymore. I'm glad I've had this opportunity too grow and change for the better. It does take two too have problems in a marriage, but one too end it, I wanted to get through it together, you chose to leave. I'm sorry that your life at the moment isn't great, tell me what you want from me & i'll do my best to do it? I think we need too look forwards not back. We're both hurting so lets just take things slowly?

I wanted to say more about his rejection and revising our history and who is the most hurt etc but decided not to add anything b/c if he is still angry, it wouldn't have achieved anything and he generally likes to have the last word. Hopefully i have accomplised much?


H hasn't answered that text or the text that I sent earlier in the day. I waited for the suggested time to call last night and when H hadn't rung me I called him. I didn't want him to think I was being stubborn by not calling, which is what the old me would have done. The call went to voicemail, but I didn't leave a message. H txted later to apologise for missing the call etc he was now finishing the packing. The tone was nice, which is good b/c I was worried I had gone too far with the text. When I have txted/emailed stuff like this before, I don't think he has replied, but I think it does get him thinking...

I'm off to make myself beautiful now and prepare S1 favorite dinner (mommy hat back on). Wish me luck.

J - i'm a fixer too, I think it comes from always having to be self reliant, it's also part of my job to be well organised and fast paced and it's not any different when I come home. H is a wonderful person, very generous in terms of money (just not himself), so i'm the one everyone turns to, and i've become too bogged down with everyones needs that my own have become suffocated. I feel i'm tredding water at the moment, so thats a positive. I love D1 and miss her but she was so emotionally demanding from me, maybe I don't cope well with to much neediness or maybe I'm not such a good mom, I think i am, but D2 accuses me of been to stressy over little things, but I like my house tidy and I do expect her to tidy up after herself and to do chores, I don't think thats unresonable. I flipped the other day - she had taken the toilet roll from my toilet for her toilet b/c she said there wasn't any in the cupboard, there were spares in the downstairs toilet and in the cupboard, but she chose to take mine and i didn't notice until I had USED the toilet, luckily I had a tissue in my pocket, but would that make others mad?

J - What other 180's did you do? Why did you go into depression?

J - I also wanted to talk about your comment 'do what works' 'been less available isn't working'? i'm not really sure what is working atm? its obviously got him thinking this week with me not being around & a bit mysterious, so surely thats a positive? But on the other hand how do I become available without being to available/vulnerable/needy? If i can clarify this then maybe I can set some goals that I can monitoe atm i feel i'm plodding on aimlessly with no purpose or direction or nothing clear of what does and doesn't work??


Thank you for reading, any advice on my text would be most appreciated.

Happy sunday

Love E xx

[Jen_Jam]

Hi E and hope Xmas was good under the circumstances

Your txt - seems fine to me, OK it hasn't got a reaction but in my case I found that I would say things to H, no reaction, then a while later (could be weeks, could be a couple of months) he would come out with more or less exactly what I'd said previously - I knew then he was absorbing what I'd said.

The D2 toilet tissue thing - it would make me mad too, I'd come out with a few "grrr's". it's Ok to feel angry/stressed etc, but it's how you deal with it that counts. OK, you like a tidy house, but do YOU think maybe you do stress over it a bit much? Has it caused any problems in the past? Would it hurt to let it all go for a day or two? I ask because I used to be very fussy over the house, I let that drop during the crisis but now I have reached a halfway house - I accept that I cannot keep it immaculate all the time, and I will dedicate a few hours to it at the weekend but if I don't finish everything I wanted I'll be Ok with that. I used to make long "to do" lists, and get upset if I didn't finish everything on it. I still make these lists, but now I divide them up into "things which have to be done" and "things which would be good to get done". But to sum up, if you feel that you are too stressy and it's having a negative reaction on those around you then yes, do something about it.

180's and depression. OK, 180s I did were:
old me - get upset about minor problems like H being late back from work
new me - understand sometimes busses are late, let it drop. I always think "if I fly off the handle, how will that help me get what I want?"
old me - didn't go out much, always wanted to save money
new me - I budget better and in my budget keep some money back to spend on nights out/fun stuff.
And one case in point I can think of - we switched mortgages earlier this year. H had to send off our marriage certificate to the lender by registered post. The lender called me and said they didn't have it. H was adament that he'd sent it. I was in the process of arranging a duplicate when H called and said he'd found the M certificate - he'd forgotten to send it. Old me would have shouted and told him how stupid he'd been. I remember clearly thinkin "here is a chance" and I took a breath, said it was good that the cert hadn't gone missing and alsed H to post it that day. H actually said he was expecting me to get angry and shout.

Depression - September 2006, we went to a festival and H really came out of his shell and enjoyed himself. He still hadn't told me ILY or said our problems were behind us. I felt really isolated .... I felt like he'd come out of his shell and he was starting to cure, but I was scared I'd be left behind. He'd spent summer 2006 being really low, then suddenly he was starting to look and behave more like his old self. But I got nothing out of this - a big fat zero. I felt like saying "I did all that work, you're now better and I still get nothing!". Also mixed up in this was feelings about my childhood - I was bullied a bit, then fell out big time with my parents, I felt lonely and unloved as a teenager, I was going about seeking approval and someone to love me, getting hurt when I felt that love was being withdrawn. I felt like sh*t. I had individual C sessions, spoke to H about my childhood and it helped he listened. I realised I didn't NEED anyone to love me as long as I loved myself.
Also here I wish i'd read the sticky at the top of the piecing borad - that when the WAS recommits, the LBS can feel like they are unsure about the whole thing. I've since realised this is quite common, and it's at that point when you realise when you were making changes and hoping WAS would notice and appreciate right away, that it takes time to feel changes stick. The WAS at recommital time is changing, it's hard to trust that they won't run off again.

Ok - doing what works. Seems H was angry that you don't answer the phone every time. Going dark is good advice but it doesn't always work. I think the best way to find what does work is set goals. Read the bit in the DR book in Step 5 Experiment and Monitor results, where it's headed "how can I tell if what I'm doing is working?". This is solid gold advice Also the bit after about the method backfiring - Michelle says it's comon for the was's initial reaction to be anger. I can't say for sure if going dark will or won't work for you, only you can decide on that, but setting goals helped me a GREAT deal. I would have very simple ones like "H will smile at me".

Well - phew! Sorry it's a little long. I hope all is going Ok and hang on in there - you seem to have the patience to go the distance on this, and believe me it will be a LONG distance. But all in all, so far things are looking positive at the moment, but be prepared for things to get worse before they get better.

Right - better go now, stomach rumbling so I'm off for a bacon buttie

[saffie]

Eve,

Thinking of you. I haven't emailed you at home as I didn't know how safe that was. Hope you are Ok. Jen _ Jam is an 'expert' at all this DB business. Listen to her.

You know where I am and if you want a chat some time just call - I am easier to get on my mobile. Hopefully we can get to meet up in 2008.

When do you go back to work so I can email you there? I miss your emails

You are in my thoughts.