Corri I am going to use you and Mojo M's as examples, because I know them so well, and becuase you ladies are such good sports. If you dont like it please say so.
Before I do, I will say (and please remember this) there was more to your sitch's, and I am NOT blaming you. OK?
He took one dancing lesson with me and learned enough to wing it when we went out. Of course, I usually planned the night out, asked him to dance, and was generally the one responsible for fun and frivolity.
What I see here from the picture you paint, is a man did something for you. placating. I wont even conjecture if he had a good time or not. So essentially he loses by doing something that you wanted too. Asked him to dance. Would you say that you or he was the more experienced and confidant one -in this situation?
You being the one 'responsible' for fun and frivolity, did he by any chance have areas in the relationship he was responsible for, like bread winning or other areas that he planned? Was that an unfair division of labor?
And that whole FUN thing has nothing to do with if/when you have sex (it's more like a hope, not an expectation...)
So at the end of the night of dancing laughing drinking, and rubbing up on you, he wanted to have sex.... with his wife. That is an odd expectation. I guess. Sounds like a test. To me.
I have another example from Mojo's thread that I want to grab and *hopefully* give ideas on how a guy can change the dynamic.
I guess it was convoluted, but it was aimed at Burgbud.
What is going on with you BB? Im curious if your still filling your 401k for your WAW.
You really see no connection between making her feel more secure and maintaining an attraction to you?
I do see a connection between making her feel secure and her feeling I desire her. Which IS important. I seriously question that there is a connection between giving security and them being attracted to you. There are many men and women that are WILLING to TRADE that, but that is not Attraction. A woman who is attracted to you and respects you and believes in you will follow you around the world and sleep in the mud.
I provide almost nothing currently. There is lots of attraction. (obviously at this stage thats all there is) Heck they try to AOS and GG me. Its when I dont show any desire back that it is withdrawn (not lost) out of self preservation.
The beer to slam doesn't have to be that way if he chooses not to be.
here is my response to that. -- Has anyone else seen that new sitcom "The Big Bang Theory"? On the last episode a female nerd seduces a male nerd and then objects to his affection saying that she was just using him to get her dopamine fix.
How many people who saw/read/ that thought it was funny? How many would think it was funny if a guy --say a guy like me...did it to a bunny girl?
No the beer does not have the choice. Her perception is hers. They decide what role I will play immediately. If I try to go outside of their perception, it weirds them out, and messes up everything. Yes I have some control over my environment and behavior.
LFL, why do I have to explain the dynamic of my failed M everytime? Im not just talking to you.
See, I am a human. Im not superman. I make mistakes such as: I cared what my W thought of me, I wanted to make her Happy yada yada yada, she had the ability to hurt me, I personalized, I valued her input, I couldnt alwayst tell what was a test and when I should really believe what she said. None of the above is reason for A or D. None of the above is an excuse for the dissasembling a woman tries to do to a man's pysche to make herself feel better about leaving. Its like you and cobra cant imagine me doing any of the above. Imagine x's surprise then. LOL. Can I pass tests now like the terminator in a pile of new born kittens? Oh hell yeah. Its pretty ridiculous actually. But Im not attached to the outcome. That wont happen till I put time and effort into the R. What will happen when I respect her and value what she says? That is what you say you want... yes?
I shut her out and down AFTER she responded and reacted to OM. Oh. she finally had the opportunity to show she made a choice, because there was someone--who was for the first time since she met me, just as attractive to her.
Its Not My Job To Tend Her Fences. Allowing her to throw that on you is just more Supplicating. Dont do it. If you do, she is not just as invested in the R as you. She stood there in front of god/family/priest/judge and said her OWN vows.
Dom is supplicating and placating his WAW so much. He doesnt have a chance.
I refuse to accept that responsibility, untill I meet a woman who says that it is, and we make an agreement including that as one of my responsibilities. Im not going to give her what she wants, just so she can take my kids and half my lifes energy a few years after having 1 of mine and 1 of someone elses kid -- for the cardinal sin of wanting to make her happy and trying to take care of her by listening to what she says will do that (hoop jumping).
Other people have stated you are basically all wolf. I have said I am now all wolf, and I do Even that to protect women. (this is not looking for sympathy, so dont give it. My life does not suck. ) I miss being monkey/stallion quite a bit. I have reminders to myself all over to keep myself in check. quotes in lipstick on my bathroom mirrors. posts from here on my fridge and in my office. etc. Its not easy. It takes a lot of work.
I dont hide my rapier behind a lace petticoat. I stride around with my Claymore unsheathed. only those who think they can deal with it come forward. There are not a small number of predators trying to hide in bunny suits nowadays, who only want to go home with smiles on their faces. I just make em take off the bunny suit first, or I dont play w/ them. Mojo said I should integrate Alpha and Top. I still dont know what she means by that. Im willing to listen. Then Mojo changed to be puppy. I was puppy here once and you wanted to give me a hug. Gross. I dont want a hug, I want to get laid. Another time I was puppy here, and you thought it meant you could kick the puppy. Remember? I have no desire to take care of .... I wont allow myself to take responsibility for taking care of a grown ass woman.
Maybe you should focus more on maintaining that attraction long-term,
It is my job to maintain MY attraction. I mastered that. Maintaining her attraction is NOT my job. Thats a battle against female biology, and untill I meet a woman who acknowleges and accepts who and what she is, and her feelings about LT attraction, I dont stand a chance of doing that on my own. This is what I want men to understand. Assuming you can do it, is still placating and supplicating. Letting her throw it all on you and do all the work is not holding her responsible for her half, no matter how much she cry's or rants at you.
Im not going to give her what she wants, just so she can take my kids and half my lifes energy a few years after having 1 of mine and 1 of someone elses kid -- for the cardinal sin of wanting to make her happy and trying to take care of her by listening to what she says will do that (hoop jumping).
[..]I dont hide my rapier behind a lace petticoat.
Arrrrgh. See what happens, sisters in arms? They take perfectly respectable science and a flippant remark and turn it into the philosophy of doom.
*petulant voice*
If I weren't married to a remarkable exception I'd retire to a convent and raise peas.
Blackfoot, I don't always grok everything you say, but I think I agree with a lot of this. In that it's not my husband's job to maintain my attraction to him; I'm a growed-up girl and I signed up for a lifelong monogamous sexually-active relationship with him, so it's MY job to maintain my feelings of attraction toward him. Granted, desire is somewhat fugitive and changeable at the best of times, but to a degree I do think it's a choice. Sometimes the emotion has to follow the action ... or the conviction .... but so be it. Whether you're looking for the manure or the pony ride makes a big difference.
(Of course there are instances where one's partner by mishap or design is making him or herself as actively unattractive as possible, and there's only so much anyone can take, but as you say that's no excuse for either infidelity or bailing without trying.)
However, regardless of the fact that maintaining attraction is my responsibility, if he wants to make my fidelity easy rather than hard he will do things that tend to increase my attraction to him, to wit, flirting with me, being mentally available for conversation or sex or some kind of playfulness, touching me often, being an ethical and upstanding human being, and maintaining himself to a reasonable standard as a healthy toothsome animal.
And of course it works both ways; I try to do things that make it natural to maintain his attraction to me. This involves things like dressing up for him, engaging in *extensive* conversation, and being supportive and patient of his occasional forays into programmer or composer fugue states which make him completely unavailable to me or indeed anyone.
That's not placating; it's love. Why shouldn't I try to make it pleasant to keep his vows, as long as my personal integrity is not damaged in any way? That's not the same thing as making myself *responsible* for his half. IMHO.
And anyone who pleads, "Please please don't leave me, I'll do anything you want", either overtly or by their actions, has already immolated their personal integrity and will not be able to rebuild a successful marriage on those ashes. If they do, it will be at the sacrifice of their dignity and self-respect, which seems like a rather Pyrrhic victory. Again IMHO.
BTW, restraining myself from making an unsheathed Claymore joke with *extreme* difficulty .....
And I hope you use Covergirl. 'Cause the nice stuff is bloody expensive.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
As for the “inevitable”: a girl, left alone to completely tend her own fences, will not usually feel honored that you trust her so much, she’ll think you don’t care if the fence holds or not, and act accordingly.
All I can say is OK. I should probably look for a woman and not a girl then. Would that make a differance? If I didna care about the fence, I wouldna ask her to build it with me to begin with, lass. (sorry watching craig ferguson)
When people entrust me with their lives... when people entrust me with the lives of their children to travel around the world and do life support oriented sports, I am certainly honored by their trust. Thats the view I have. Thats a pretty close approximation to the job I am giving my W. Yes?
If your ego is fluffed by sarcasm I applaud you for its adaptability. [Takes bow.]Thank you. I am pretty adaptable. not very flexible though.
That’s not a weakness, that’s actually a useful talent. You recognize patterns. As do I. That’s why I always do well on standardized tests because all they really are is pattern recognition.
You chose to ignore my stated weakness, and focus on my strength that we have in common. Very common in the beginning, and I appreciate that, but I wonder if you saw my weakness. Do you really know me? Do you see me for who I am? Once you acknowledge the weakness, I know you see it. Will you still like me? Are you going to help me with it, or beat me with it. If your icked out by it, I know a) you cant help me with it and b) you dont like all of me. (Im not serious about the you and I part, but I am serious about the dynamic.)
When someone tells you their weakness what do you (general you) do with it?
But I distinctly recall from reading “The Guide to Getting it On” as a teen that it basically said “we interviewed thousands of people, male, female, old, young, gay, straight, about their sexual preferences .. and the only thing they all had in common is that they all enjoy a good backrub”.
Well thats a good thing for a book to say, because then your not inclined to think you allready know the answer (which is not attractive --like say, interest in, and awareness of the other person). The not so smart part of it is believing what people say, especailly in an interview. Watch what they do, to see the truth. If they match, THEN you can believe them. I read an Excerpt from the spears girl's interview about what she thinks of premarital sex and pregnancy...and she is 16 and pregnant...I ROTFLMAO. I think they should have asked her about sex with older men and statutory rape laws as well. *tears of laughter*
They take perfectly respectable science and a flippant remark and turn it into the philosophy of doom.
Science and numbers just report facts. If your sisters in arms were not creating the data, with there tromping upon the poor miseducated and incorrectly indoctrinated men with their high heels, *wink wink* just because they can, I would not have a philosophy of doom. Just yesterday a woman said to me, [long convo about D- she was gloating about twisting him] 'I cant stand it when men cower.' I said 'I have two questions for you. why is he cowering? and why are you doing the thing that makes him cower if you dont like it. w: 'I dont know. Why? bf: [cracks up] You want me to tell you- why you are doing something? Ill tell you why he is cowering. How about that? Because your threatening everything he cares about. If a pyscho told you he was going to wipe out your family, would you beg him not to? w: so I am a pyscho? bf: you tell me. w: your not very nice. bf: I dont have to be. I dont have a pyscho threatening my family. *smile*
Ignoring facts seems dangerous. I completely and utterly support M. I encourage men to work on being more Attractive, which is quite counter intuitive and NOT easy in a LTR. I dont support blushing cinderella's with rapiers behind their back -sticking clueless and helpless men in the wallet and heart- while making confabulated excuses to everyone else. I also dont support men who shirk responsibility and abandon their families. The law has that handled pretty well for those who make use of it. Being pro man, does not make me anti woman. I take M seriously. maybe too seriously, but I wont apologize for that.
If I weren't married to a remarkable exception I'd retire to a convent and raise peas It takes two, so kudo's to you as well. I love your flippant remarks (raise peas? peas? where did you come up with peas? Ive laughed so much reading here the past couple days. I love this place. ) and essays that *amuses self*. They really really amuse me as well. fait accompli.
Blackfoot, I don't always grok everything you say,
Yeah. Im no Heinlein. and Lil keeps scribbling on my puctuation. but I dont like writing so you should just say thank you and muddle thru the meandering digressions of a puppyless genius with an excellent, superlative, bully, tremendous, magnificent, capital, first class .......vocabulary. *cracks up*
Whether you're looking for the manure or the pony ride makes a big difference.
Yes it does. It makes a huge difference. You can even enjoy cleaning up the manure, working the muscles, taking care of the animal, knowing there will be a pony ride. When I started actively looking for x's good traits to maintain my desire, is when I truly loved her. IMO. Untill then it was never owned by me. my attraction was up to her prior to that.
That's not placating; it's love. Why shouldn't I try to make it pleasant to keep his vows, as long as my personal integrity is not damaged in any way? This may be true but its subjective to their perspective. I cant control that. If I decide to do something for my SO, its up to them whether they see that as placating or caring for me. Greeneyedlass used to talk about this also. Controlling your perspective.
as illusory as it sounds, intent does matter.
If they do, it will be at the sacrifice of their dignity and self-respect, which seems like a rather Pyrrhic victory. Again IMHO. Strange. I used that same phrase talking to Stigmata here.
BTW, restraining myself from making an unsheathed Claymore joke with *extreme* difficulty .....
LOL. whatever do you mean?
And I hope you use Covergirl. 'Cause the nice stuff is bloody expensive.
at first I thought you were talking about the halloween dress up reference. Then I realized you meant the lipstick. They just seem so lost and abandoned, I figured they should be put to a *good* use. heh. MAC seems like an oddly masculine name for makeup. *cracks up again* w: have you seen my lipstick bf: was it the MAC or the clinique w: it was the Lancome bf: oh. yeah. I used it to write new good stuff on my mirror. w: WHAT!!! bf: It kinda broke too. so itll be shorter then you remember. Its not very strong. w: WHAT!! bf: I needed something to write with. Thanks. Good color BTW. w: I cant believe $#@# #@$#$ $#@#$# bf: haha just kidding. about the breaking part. its in the drawer. w: #@$##$ %#$#@#$ $##@
So cute watching you ladies put your face on. Of course, if its so expensive, why do you use it? bloody waste if you ask me. False advertising as well. Can be shocker sometimes, if you dont know what to look for. [--eek. she has no eyebrows. eek her eyebrows are on my pillow coyote ugly efforts ensue... wait. damn. this is my house. snort. ]
Women should only be allowed to wear make up when they go out of the house, and they should only be allowed out of the house on special occasions and holidays. under close supervision.
Mojo said I should integrate Alpha and Top. I still dont know what she means by that. Im willing to listen. Then Mojo changed to be puppy. I was puppy here once and you wanted to give me a hug. Gross. I dont want a hug, I want to get laid. Another time I was puppy here, and you thought it meant you could kick the puppy. Remember? I have no desire to take care of .... I wont allow myself to take responsibility for taking care of a grown ass woman.
I was madly "in love" with my son when he was a baby. I actually worried that some other woman might steal him from me at the grocery store because he was so cute. At 8 mos. he weighed 25 lbs. and would only go to sleep at night after an exhausting cycle of breast-feeding and walking about with him in my arms. I finally told myself "Okay, you gotta let him cry himself to sleep.". I couldn't bear to hear him so I left the house and walked around the block. It took a very long time but finally he fell asleep. The second night when I returned from my walk he was still screaming. I stayed strong and told myself learning to self-comfort was for his own good. Then I heard a loud thump followed by silence. He couldn't even stand yet but in his manic despair he had grabbed the top bar of the crib and used his sticky little baby toes to heave himself up and over the bar and on to the floor. The thing I don't know is the name for the emotion that would describe the look on his face when I walked in the room.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
So at the end of the night of dancing laughing drinking, and rubbing up on you, he wanted to have sex.... with his wife. That is an odd expectation. I guess. Sounds like a test. To me.
I appreciate your comments and your view. It is but a snapshot of one thing that got coupled into lots of other things.
On the surface, if I were to read just what I wrote, I'd probably get the same feeling as you. But it wasn't that simple. I thought it was VERY cool that he would dance with me
There was an EXTREME power imbalance in my R. It wouldn't matter WHAT example I gave you, the results would have been the same. They would have been the same because of the imbalance, not because of the activity, not because I was being insensitive or because he was being placating. He didn't WANT to be placating anymore than I wanted to be insensitive. The power imbalance brought out those things in our personalities, and that is what did us in, because we could not get out of it. It wasn't from a lack of trying, either.
If you dont like it please say so. 
not very flexible though. 
and Lil keeps scribbling on my puctuation. 
but I dont like writing so you should just say thank you and muddle thru the meandering digressions of a puppyless genius with an excellent, superlative, bully, tremendous, magnificent, capital, first class .......vocabulary. *cracks up* 
whatever do you mean? 
coyote ugly efforts ensue... wait. damn. this is my house. snort. ] 