Angelica: Totally agreed. I have tried so hard. My kids are older, too, though Ashley was 12 when her dad left. They all decided NOT to ever include OW in their lives, despite the fact she is now married to their dad - their choice! They were not told of the wedding (read about it in the newspaper) and were not invited. I'm sure that spoke volumes to others about how well it was received.
At Christmas they try to spend a couple of hours with their dad but basically, they take what they can get. They used to ask every year to spend Christmas Eve with them but he blew them off to be with OW. Now they try to do something (one year Christmas was in his car as he was too cheap to feed them).
This morning, Ashley was telling me of all her plans between now and Christmas. She didn't even mention her father. So I said "I thought you were going to be with your dad briefly on Christmas Eve". She just turned up her nose and said "oh, yeah - well maybe". Hmmm.... he still can't see what he is missing.
I avoid him - he is always horribly nasty. But if I HAVE to speak to him, I try to keep it friendly or at least businesslike.
Yes, kids need to have some input. Best to ask their "ideal" then try to work out something close to that.
It is those like yours that make me want to cry. Not because you did not reconcile, but because he is still to this day so nasty and he has for the most part lost his children.
Each will respond differently. If our MLCers each walked up to us in the same mood and conditions and said the same things and each of use responded in identical good DB fashion, we would received a myriad of reactions: nice, neutral, shock, nasty, ignore--in one ear and processing for later or out the other ear...
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I avoid him - he is always horribly nasty. But if I HAVE to speak to him, I try to keep it friendly or at least businesslike.
A two-way cordial relationship is not a guarantee. We can only do our part, not theirs and being cordial to them will not always realize a cordial response or relationship.
But it probably keeps it better than being nasty back!
The idea is to treat them like a human. It's not right to treat anyone nastily. Tough love, firm/ boundaries etc. Yes, but nasty just damages our own Selves.
Makes me so sad that a man who was a good dad and family man for so many, many years (25 married) could just ditch it SO quickly. And turn SO against us. And not get better. He has OW, he doesn't want us - it's too complicated.
I have said things but regretted them later, mostly they were screamed in frustration. It has never done me any good. It is what I might have done differently. I have to really work at being civil or even fair and friendly. But it is worth the effort regardless of his reaction since I have myself to answer to and I have to set a good example for my children.
I don't believe that he is happy. Maggot is NOT a nice person. She abandoned her son and H and even after she was LIVING with my H - led her H to believe she was just looking after a home for a friend - doing a good deed. He truly had no idea - the ultimate betrayal. I suspected the affair but H continued to deny it until he got an apt with OW. They fed each other lies to tell the spouses. It was SICK!
So, I choose to move past that. If I think about it - it feels horrible all over again.
My kids are probably better off NOT to be involved in their lives and seeing their Dad outside of his home. The one time my son met maggot was when he went to confront his dad and she did all the answering despite the fact Brandon told her he wanted nothing to do with her - he was talking to his father. She ran the show. Sweet, huh?
My kids are loved and they know it. I do as much for them as I can and I try to be there for them. We have kept our traditions as much as possible and added new ones to fit the circumstances. They wouldn't miss it for the world.
BarbieDoll your last post made me remember something someone told me years ago; that you enter into emotional relationships with people who are on the same emotional level as yourself. That would explain why so many WAS hook up with some very damaged partners. Maggot's presence when your son wanted to talk to his father illustrated her need to control the situation which of course is a symptom of deep insecurity. It may comfort you to know maggot was not operating out of a position of power and strength, but from fear and insecurity. I know that does nothing to reduce your frustration that your son could not speak to his father alone.
My WAS has commented that OM "has to be the center of attention." I've also heard she told a friend that the worse she treats him the more clingy he gets. Well duh, his first wife (divorced in May) was bipolar. Can we say on the rebound AND repeating a pattern? Its like they fill the holes in one another's emotions or something, fitting together like pieces of a sick puzzle. That could also explain why they bond so quickly, cohabitate, etc.
They are not in a good place. We may be blessed that they run away. Their little fantasy world they create to dull their pain doesn't last for long as reality eventually comes crashing in. That's one reason I think one of the final stages of mlc is depression.
Last edited by sleeper; 12/17/0703:31 AM.
"The answers are within you" (can't remember who). Unfortunately, so is the bullshit.
Sleeper, Snodderley and other wise people have commented that fo most MLCers depression is the ongoing state during MLC - it becomes ACUTE during the final stages, often forcing the MLCer to address the issues [or vice versa - starting to address the issues deepens the depression, I am not sure, just stating what seems to happen from what people have posted]
My h was ALWAYS a glass half empty person, and was always subject to mild depression. He was depressed for a couple of years prior to the bomb, but wouldn't talk about it. The depression took the form of lethargy and occasional bursts of bad temper.
COvert depression is difficult to deal with. The affair, the spending and other behaviours are in part an attempt to self medicate for the depression. Some drink and do drugs. And yes I agree that they usually have an emotional relatinship with someone prety messed up. Negative emotional energy? Attraction to someone at the 'same ' emotional level? Plus only a pretty messed up person hangs around with a married man . . .
We seek to understand, and we have to detach from it all . . . for me understanding helps the detachment. I try not to be obssesive about it!!
I'd like to tell you a couple of things I'm aware of and things that Ex said. Just because it fits what this discussion is about.
Ex told me when he met maggot that they both "UNDERSTOOD" each other and what they were going through. That they both suffered severely from low self esteem. That maggot would never "hold a candle" to me. That I was better than both of them.
maggot went after one married man after another (her H and pastor told me this). She even hit on the married pastor after befriending his wife. After my son met with her standing in front of my ex to speak for him (my son described it as dad being a "puppet"), she did it again when my BIL went to talk to Chuck about what was going on and basically try to hit him with a 2x4. She refused to leave the room. Was so afraid Kevin might actually "get through" to Chuck.
Chuck moved back home on Dec 13/01 - 3.5 months after moving out. Moved back all w/e - furniture - EVERYTHING. He broke up with maggot and we were putting it all back together. It lasted ONE WEEK! He was gone again - right at Christmas. I had major surgery on Dec 17 so I was barely off the couch when he left again. He didn't want to answer to me. Didn't want to "face his demons" (HIS WORDS).
Who knows what their R is now. They got married 2 years ago. My divorce was final the day after my Mom died. The next day maggot wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper referring to my Ex as her fiance and saying how much he loved her and that they'd be married soon. It was totally unrelated to the subject she was supposed to be writing about - but she wanted us all to know. My kids were appalled!
Last week Ex told my daughter that his wife had a bad cold & cough. She was keeping him awake at night. It was driving him crazy. He was sure he'd be sick for Christmas - so she was to expect that. Told how tired he was - never got any sleep. That was the first insight into his world after the divorce that I've had in ages, other than the fact that 6.5 years post separation - he is still SO angry and nasty and uncsring towards his children.
I don't think about them much anymore. But sometimes their R just makes me laugh. They both needed a rescuer and found each other. What a sick place to be. If the M lasts (and it could), I'm sure it will be one of total denial. He says they're "soul mates". "Co- dependant" mates would be more like it.
I don't believe that anyone who hurts everyone who loves them but particularly their kids can be happy. And in a day he turned from "Let's renew our marriage vows" and my anniversary card that said "Thanks for the best 25 years, looking forward to the next 25" and then is out the door and moving in with maggot. DUH?>
Barbie - this is some discussion relative to this on w8ting's thread - about page 6-7 about MLC being a process of re-definition of the self. I think this is RCR's view also.
I also think that the MLCer meets someone with the same emotional needs that they have at that point - a sort of lock and key.
Your h sounds as if he doesn't have the self esteem and courage to face his demons. And promiscuous women notably have low self esteem. Yes, this r could last but what a sick co-dependent one, as you say.
Angelica: I'm glad to not be involved with them, to have let him know in every sense of the word that maggot was not someone I ever cared to meet - she was the devil! My children are totally of the same opinion of their own accord as they were old enough to understand. I am grateful that they only see their father outside of his "little love nest" as maggot describes it. They choose not to meet our acknowledge maggot. Ashley tells me it bothers her terribly when he refers to "his wife". His family don't like her but put up with her for his sake. I have no idea how much involvement there is, but judging by how rarely we saw his relatives - I suspect little.
I think the damage was done a long time ago and we just brace ourselves at times (like Christmas) when there will be interaction. Looks like I'm good for a while. Ash will graduate college in 18 months and I expect that will be the next time I see him. At her high school grad I had Brandon go sit with him somewhere else. He was refusing to pay her costs at the time and I wanted to spit on him. It was better for all concerned this way.
Ok, just when I thought I had this stuff down I've been thrown another curve.
Our sitch (as briefly as humanly possible) Married 7 years (the itch?), 2 children, 4 houses, opened 1 business, 1 business relocation, one child sexually assulted, 2 year difficult trial, I developed PTSD (shut down), both wife's parents die, wife says, "I don't know who I am", "I just want to runaway", "I want to live a life, feel passion" CLASSIC, TEXTBOOK, SEVERE CASE OF MLC. She wants us to still be "family" and has commented she will probaly marry me again someday. Separated one year, she filed in Aug, no further action. OM off/on (on now).
Problem: She wants me to take kids week of New Years (her week) so she can go on a sking trip to CO. with boyfriend. She hasn't told me going withn boyfriend, I learned from our kids. Hiding what she is doing with boyfriend is a new behavior for her, second time she's done this in the past month and a half. Before she didn't give a rat's ___ if I knew. If I take the kids I will feel that I am enabling her to continue affair, but if don't she will find somebody, (read ANYBODY) to care for kids so she can go. DD 8 opined tonight that it will be unfair for them (children) to have to be with a babysitter for 1/2 of their Christmas break. On a much less important note WAS commented this was the "chance of a lifetime" for her and will no doubt blame me if I don't cooperate with her and make this possible for her. Her spew was vitrolic in the begining, but she has not spewed, showed anger in past 2 months (a record). I have not gone dark, have been plan "A"ing for a year and she has noticed.
"The answers are within you" (can't remember who). Unfortunately, so is the bullshit.
