No time to post but I do appreciate everyone's comments on my own thread and also on MJ's thread regarding my situation. I have been listening, just can't gather my thoughts right now to respond. More later. LFL
LFL, after thinking about it I'm fairly certain all my grand theories only work because things are going my way, and blackfoot's equally grand ones only work because he's not currently married with kids.
In your sitch I'd be pacing around the circle with an even more bewildered look, not knowing which way to turn.
Since we've established (and pretty much all agree) that his leaving is a big problem I do think .... was it oldtimer's? question is worth pondering as well. Healthy young men do tend to physiologically want sex every few days at least. Question is what they do with that impulse. Suppress? Ignore? Turn to porn? Masturbate? What? Do you know what your h does with his?
Your post to Blackfoot last night describing how you saw LFL's H's behavior in leaving during their separation is a little different than my impression of his leaving. I'm also not sure that I agree that LFL's problem with her H's leaving is the same problem you are seeing. Meaning that I think you are stressing the feelings of abandonment and betrayal - is this a correct impression?
My impression was that her H was suffering personal issues - depression, etc., had rented an apartment without letting LFL know and THEN moved out after LFL confronted him after her discovery of money withdrawn. It was a weak way for him to deal with his personal issues and it was a terribly bad thing for their marriage however I'm not sure, because LFL did not write it, that her H said that he was leaving because of her.
She did say that:
"He says he just fell into a depression and running was the only solution he could see in his fogged mind. That whole thing hurts more than out entire SSM issues. He changed as a man in my eyes that day and may be the crux of the problems now."
So my impression was that she viewed/views him as a weak man that could not handle his issues in a strong manner. She seemed more bothered by his act of running away than a feeling of desertion. See:
Mojo: It is one thing for a man to signal "I'm not feeling very manly right now and you aren't helping." It's another thing for a man to signal "I'm not willing to be the man."
LFL: Nicely put. And when H left he clearly signaled the latter. Yuck. If he had chosen for former before he jumped ship, we might not be where we are today.
Because my perspective is naturally biased and jaded due to my background, I actually view LFL's H as much stronger than she views him. I keep thinking "I wish to hell my XH had been strong enough to just get away BY HIMSELF when he felt 'I'm not willing to be the man' rather than signal intense weakness and succumb to OW." Or to put it more crudely, I wish my XH had had the guts to run away on his own rather than f*cking OW. But that's just me.
What I am most curious about with LFL is to know if she understands why her H's weakness is so problematic for her.
I knew my XH had weakness for attention and validation from women and it wasn't attractive to me but for whatever reason it was also something I could deal with too. His other characteristics were more than able to overcome that significant "turn-off." I guess I didn't define him by his weakness??
Anyway... if you're reading LFL, I've hesitated to post to you. I really worry that you are throwing away a marriage that is very salvageable and breaking up your family. But I also know that you are taking this seriously and in the end I am sure that you will try everything you can before you give up.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Your post to Blackfoot last night describing how you saw LFL's H's behavior in leaving during their separation is a little different than my impression of his leaving. I'm also not sure that I agree that LFL's problem with her H's leaving is the same problem you are seeing. Meaning that I think you are stressing the feelings of abandonment and betrayal - is this a correct impression?
Not quite. I see it as the breaking of a magic circle that kept her eyes turned inward ... which is what I was trying to illustrate with my fire analogy. There were problems before, and after, but now leaving is on the table in a way it wasn't before.
My impression only. I'll let LFL speak for herself if she wants.
Edit to add: It's also my impression (from a very small sample of n < 50) that being "just left" doesn't hurt fundamentally less than being left for OP. I can't compare personally, because it hasn't happened to me, I just observe friends and people on this board - and the pain (if pain can ever be quantified) is different, but seems equally intense. The LBS of WAs that "just left" seem to struggle with similar issues of anger, pain, etc even years later. In a way, it may be worse because there is no "chemical love cocktail" to blame for the desertion. As I said, this is simply observation. I hope I don't have to experience either myself.
SG - Not quite. I see it as the breaking of a magic circle that kept her eyes turned inward ... which is what I was trying to illustrate with my fire analogy. There were problems before, and after, but now leaving is on the table in a way it wasn't before.
SG, I can understand that analogy but I don't see how it fully applies to LFL. What about these statements from LFL?
He says he just fell into a depression and running was the only solution he could see in his fogged mind. That whole thing hurts more than out entire SSM issues. He changed as a man in my eyes that day and may be the crux of the problems now.
and
Mojo: It is one thing for a man to signal "I'm not feeling very manly right now and you aren't helping." It's another thing for a man to signal "I'm not willing to be the man."
LFL: Nicely put. And when H left he clearly signaled the latter. Yuck. If he had chosen for former before he jumped ship, we might not be where we are today.
They seem to state very strongly that his weakness was more of a turn-off to her.
The funny thing to me is that weakness can be demonstrated in many different ways. To me, Blackfoot's description of how he handled his "puppy" seemed more weak than strong. I see a man who cannot handle having a puppy side and has to destroy the puppy as the flip side of going into full puppy dog "poor me" mode. Either way you are a man who cannot control your puppy, right? But in LFL's case it SEEMS that she might feel more comfortable with the man who is willing to destroy his puppy??
ETA: I didn't mean ANYTHING about the pain of being left. Since my best friend's XH left her for no one I can certainly vouch that it hurts just as much!! My point was about the WEAKNESS of having another person involved. And my friend says that while it hurts, at least she knows her XH was man enough not to mix himself up with another woman. I do happen to believe that people who have affairs are weak.
Again I think this is the point of my disagreement with you. I don't really think the being left was as much of an issue for LFL as the view of seeing her H as a "man" who was weak enough to rent an apartment behind her back and to leave after a confrontation AND to leave because he couldn't cope. At the same time of course it had to hurt for her to be left. She just hasn't seem to focus her words on that issue as much as she focuses on how weak and unattractive he is to her.
ETA: But then again maybe she doesn't focus on feeling hurt because that's uncomfortable and all the discussion about finding her H weak and unattractive is really just a way to hind from those hurt feelings???????????
Last edited by fearless; 12/19/0709:12 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I haven't read this thread, but only the first post. Here is a question my C asked about XH once when I was complaining about our sexless M:
"What are his fantasies? What does he masturbate to?"
I had no idea, nor did I give it much thought.
My guess now is that he gets off on being taken (thereby absolving him of responsibility for sin) and at the same time being called a bad little boy.
But, when C asked, I didn't even have a guess. Who knows if my current guess is correct... It made sense years ago when I was consumed with thinking about XH right after the bomb. I certainly don't care what gets his rocks off. But my point is that I SHOULD have cared when C asked. I SHOULD have had a clue.
Not to say I SHOULD have tried to realize his fantasies for him. If I'm correct about what they are, they'd be a huge turn-off for me. No problem with kink, it is simply not my kink. No thank you. So, if I had had a clue, the M probably would have ended sooner. I wouldn't have bought sex book after sex book in a futile effort to end the platonic aspect of that R.
But there was NO WAY we could have ever made progress on the sex issue when we both had no clue about each other's authentic sexuality.
So, ask yourself: What makes H hard? What makes him yearn to be alone so he can jack-off because he is so horny?
H probably isn't asexual. You probably just aren't part of his sexual world. (Yuck.)
If you really want to save your M, try to find his authentic sexuality, probably through trial and error, and then see if it is something that works for you.
Wanted to touch on the sexual stuff first before the impact of his leaving.... Those are all great questions oldtimer. Actually, we addressed this specifically in MC and I believe I've written about this on the board before. The MC directly asked H: "What are your sexual fantasies?" He was like a deer in the headlights and his honest to God answer was "I don't have any." Now whether that was truly the case or not, I don't know. MC seemed surprised since I guess most people admit to some fantasy. We got into a whole discussion about how he was just not raised around sexuality at all, his father was very "proper", his friends have always been very "proper" and all that mixed in with wanting to be PC towards women led to him not sexualizing them in any way. Getting back to his father for a second, he ended up leaving his mother for a woman who also seems completely asexual (and they seem to be happy as clams to this day). I really think this is combo of genetics and the environment he grew up in. He tries now, in his way, but he is still very inhibited. He is not asexual but he could be if he had to be (I think) and I really don't think he has any hidden sexual world like porn, etc. Never showed any interest in it even when I suggested we get some to spice things up. I dunno....
I don't really think the being left was as much of an issue for LFL as the view of seeing her H as a "man" who was weak enough to rent an apartment behind her back and to leave after a confrontation AND to leave because he couldn't cope. At the same time of course it had to hurt for her to be left. She just hasn't seem to focus her words on that issue as much as she focuses on how weak and unattractive he is to her.
Well, I've always said that the WAY he left was the worst part, but I really don't have anything else to compare it to. I mean, if he had sat me down and told me "I'm going to leave for a while to figure out my own sh#t" , sure I still would have been devastated, but probably would have handled it better than what actually did happen. LFL
Did she take him back? Did she tit for tat him w/ the OM? Did they decide to work on this? Any chance his current unattractive behavior has her looking for justifications to get away from him? Is he abusive? Is he an addict? Is she part of the problem? Did she work on her part that caused him to want to get away?
BF You know I take responsibility for my part in this mess. I've always admitted that I was a real PITA about the lack of sex and probably made the situation much worse with my b#tchy behavior. I don't like how you said I "caused" him to flee. That's not fair and places way too much responsibility on my shoulders for his bad decisions. That is a double standard BF. You wouldn't place that blame on yourself, would you? should you?
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How do you know he didnt want to get away becasue she wasnt respecting him and caring from him how he wanted? But HE should 'MAN UP'. Right?
uhm...right. Did he ever once TELL me that this was the case ? (which I'm sure it could have been, looking back). I was not always nice about the SL issue. He never really told me how much it was hurting him though. He never said stop being such a b#tch. He never said a word. I don't consider that manly or respectable. So, yeah, that's a big problem.
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She knows he isnt going anywhere again. She is icked out by him. Its all about the attraction.
I wouldn't say "icked" out by him because that implies that I am always viewing him that way, which is not the case. I DO find the fact that he "isn't going anywhere" now as very attractive and manly. He is solidified in his mind as to what he wants and he is confident. Very attractive. I have never once seen him waver since we got back together. He lets me go off on my rants now and then and he is Solid, Constant, and Calm in his response to me. Also very attractive. So it's not all icky. I wouldn't take a man back who was just icky.
If you don't get the significance of that first step over the fire (it doesn't burn) then you're missing something fundamental. in my most humble opinion. Something that has nothing to do with attraction.
I liked your fire story SG. And that's what I've been saying all along, the issue now is not really our SL or level of attraction to each other, it's the past hurts (on both our parts) - with his obviously being the horrid cherry on top of the cake. LFL
