You were all right...unfortunately...

[chocolateeyes]

As far as calling a truce....WTF? Why would you really want to do this? What have you done that really warrants calling a truce? From what I've read on here, you've been firm but gentle. You planted a seed in her mind that what she is doing is wrong. Wrong for your boundaries, wrong for your marriage. You've pretty much dealt with one of the hardest tasks...exposing whatever it is they had going on. It's early, you feel like sh!t, you've brought things to the front burner...let it simmer. By calling a truce, basically what you're doing is putting this pot on the back burner and for you and her to work this out, you're eventually going to have to re-open the lid on that pot and turn the heat up again.

Yep -- bingo.

You have nothing to call a truce about. And I was shocked to read this:

and just agree that we disagree, and move on. I can't stop her from talking to the OM, or going out to dinner with other guys. She's free to do all that.

Your wife is "free" to carry on an affair, and go out to dinner with other men? Surely you meant to say "Honey, you are a grown woman, and you are free to do what you wish. But then I will have some decisions to make, because I am absolutely NOT going to live in an open marriage."

Or am I wrong?

Choc.

[sat567]

I'm confused. I remembered your exclaiming how she had given you a kiss goodbye one morning, and how it was followed by exclamation marks. You explained:

The dozen exclamation marks signify the 12 months that have gone by since the last time she gave me a kiss goodbye.

and from the most recent post:

As I left for work this morning, she said goodbye, but she said "I really don't feel like giving you a kiss." Okay, I said.

So, a few days ago she started giving you kisses goodbye, and now she withdraws these valuable crumbs? You might have said, "Feeling's mutual."

Who knows WTF is going on with her, except for the fact that she is playing you like a fiddle. I'm really torn on this one. Should you "go dark", or "fight" for the marriage? This is a question for which you will have to search for your own answer.

And, BTW, are you sure she truly knows how you feel? How do you feel? Do you want her to cut off this relationship with your former best friend? Do you want her to stop meeting your dentist? I don't think you should assume that she KNOWS how YOU FEEL. It doesn't sound to me like you're giving her much guidance on that.

What do you want?

Hairdog

[Lillieperl]

Bomb... just leave things as they are. Don't call any "truce" or anything like that. You've told her how you feel; leave it at that. You don't need to "discuss" things to death, but don't backpedal either. Let her stew. You're in a bad place right now, and there's no way of making it better all on your own.

Will you please go back and reread NOP's and choc's posts to you on this thread?

She's refusing to admit that her relationship is more than just friends, but I've planted the seed of doubt and now she's probably feeling some guilt.

I don't understand ONE WORD of this. "Seed of doubt" about WHAT? You can bet she's feeling guilty-- so don't rescue her from this. Guilt is the consequence of her behavior. She needs to experience it. Don't give her reason to put the focus back on YOU.

[bombardier50]

OK...truce is the wrong word. I think what I was getting at was that I don't have anything more to say. Choc, IMconfused, you're right on this: she needs to sit and stew. She doesn't like to stew. That's why she went out to dinner and that's why she withheld what tiny bit of affection she still showed to me. Like Lillieperl says, it's time for me to drink a great cup of shut the f_ _k up.

So help me here. In her process of coming to grips with her behavior, she's looking to place the blame squarely on me. Here's how she's doing that:

1)"You have insecurities." Yeah, no sh!t. That's where I gave her that great line:"Fighting to save my marriage is not insecurity." She REAAAALLLLY hated it when I said that.

2)"You're acting like this because you're depressed. You need to get on meds." I should elaborate on this. Until I talked to my DB coach, I was sad a lot. Well, hell yeah. We weren't having any sex, no physical affection, and she was talking to the OM constantly and acting all lovey towards him. No sh!t I was depressed. Until my DB coach pointed out that I needed to stop because it was making things worse. So now, even though I am ALWAYS happy and upbeat (at least around her), all I hear is how I need to be on meds.

So help me out here. How long does it take for the lightbulb to go on? What are the signs that she's starting to realize that SHE screwed up?

NO...I DON'T want to go to counseling, because I know what her motivation is. She wants to cure ME of my "insecurities" and my "depression" so she can continue her little warped fantasy with the OM without me hassling her. Yet, if I refuse to go to counseling, then "I don't want to work on the marriage." I'm screwed either way.

By the way, she hasn't cut off her communication with the OM, but he's really cut down on how often and how long he lets her talk to him. And he keeps the conversation really mundane. This is really pissing her off...I can tell. I'm really screwing with her world, and she can't wait to get me off her back. She made this snide little comment the other day: "I don't know why the MC hasn't called me back yet. I'm sure she could hear the desperation in my voice." Yeah, thanks.

So...there's how I feel right now. I think you can tell I'm going through the grieving process here. Right now I'm in the anger stage. In my earlier post, you heard a little bargaining. An hour from now I'll be telling myself I blew this completely out of proportion (denial). When I go to bed tonight I'll be crying in my pillow over what I've lost (depression).

Please give me acceptance...soon.

[chocolateeyes]

Bomb,

I have to run out for a couple of hours. So more later. But for now, GOOD JOB!!! Gosh, I hate to sound like Dr. Phil here, but "you can't fix what you don't acknowledge!" I feel like you're at least LISTENING now.

I'll leave you with this, for now: each step that you're about to go thru will be the most counter-intuitive thing you've ever done in your life up until now. If she's angry... GOOD! If she's happy .... BAD! (that means she's just been with OM, and she's being "fed", either emotionally or physically).

Stay upbeat, but not annoyingly so. Just positive, and loving, and STRONG. Oh, and as NOP would say, "look good and smell good."

And just her ACTIONS, not her WORDS. Her words mean NOTHING at this point, ok? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Choc.

[Lillieperl]

what I was getting at was that I don't have anything more to say

If you don't have anything more to say, then don't say anything.



Re counseling: SHE may go into MC with the idea that she's going to "fix" you, but that's not the way MC works. If the C is worth anything, one person doesn't get to push their agenda to the exclusion of anything else. And what makes you think any reputable C is going to support her position? Hel-LO!

Just hold your ground and ignore the accusations she is making at you. If you must say something, say, "Yes, I do have some insecurities and it's possible I'm depressed. I'd be happy to address these issues and others with you and a counselor as soon as you have broken off all contact with the OM. THAT will be my signal that you're interested in working on the marriage."

It sounds to me like the OM is trying to blow her off, but she refuses to acknowledge the message. Here's another icky anecdote from my past: this guy that I had the A with when I was married-- he and I took a trip together, a driving trip. When we got to our destination, he parked me with some mutual friends, and he drove off another 100 miles or so to see his former girlfriend (she had dumped him). While he visited her for a WEEK, and I cooled my heels with a girlfriend, and my H wandered around back home (what a godawful mess... really painful to remember), my A partner and his former gf decided to make a go of it again. So he came back to me and BROKE UP WITH ME. Then we had the 1,000 mile or so drive back home. I called my H and told him that "A" had dumped me, and he said, "Just fly home right now." But *I* said (and this is the point I'm making) didn't want to make "A" take that long drive by himself! Can you see how totally sick that was? He dumped me and I still wanted to make life easy for him? Yikes!

After "A" former girlfriend moved back to our city and they moved in together, I still wouldn't go away! (I'm making a comparison between myself and your W. I believe her OM is trying to cool it, but doesn't have the b@lls to tell her to GO AWAY and STAY AWAY!) After they moved in together, I drove all around the neighborhood where I knew they were moving until I found their house. I went in (when she wasn't there) and talked to him, still clinging. Finally he wrote me a letter, which made it very clear that they were back together and I was out of the picture. They married and have been together almost 30 years now.

She's probably hanging on, but eventually he will shake her loose. If the A were escalating, she wouldn't be so panicky.

Stay cool. Come here to vent. No "R" talks with her.

[bombardier50]

I'm with ya Lillieperl. I've felt sort of angry now all afternoon, and especially while writing my last post. Although angry maybe isn't the right word...it's more like an "enough is enough" sort of feeling. It might be that I'm starting to wake up a little bit. Or maybe I'm a little less scared and uncertain. And Choc, you're right about the whole counterintuitive thing. Absolutely. I don't want her to be happy right now. If anything, I want her to be just as damned miserable as I am until she decides to change her tune.

Lillieperl...your story...funny how love can turn your brain into porridge.

So you guys have made me feel good today. Confident. Empowered. BS-proof. I'm feeling a little more like Hairdog every minute...;)

[Lillieperl]

I'm feeling a little more like Hairdog every minute

Can't ask for more than that!

[chocolateeyes]

OK...truce is the wrong word. I think what I was getting at was that I don't have anything more to say. Choc, IMconfused, you're right on this: she needs to sit and stew. She doesn't like to stew. That's why she went out to dinner and that's why she withheld what tiny bit of affection she still showed to me. Like Lillieperl says, it's time for me to drink a great cup of shut the f_ _k up.

Bomb,

The trick is, to lose the anger, but keep the righteous indignation. YOU want to come across as the strong, sensible one, and let HER appear angry by comparison. You need to love HER (it's apparent that you still do), but hate what she's DOING. If you're so inclined, "love the sinner, but hate the sin."

So help me here. In her process of coming to grips with her behavior, she's looking to place the blame squarely on me.

Why of course she is! Get used to it, she's going to do it for quite awhile, too. Not only will everything you HAVE done be wrong, but she will even begin to blame you for things you HAVEN'T done. (This is called "re-writing of marital history," and many wayward spouses do it).

1)"You have insecurities." Yeah, no sh!t. That's where I gave her that great line:"Fighting to save my marriage is not insecurity." She REAAAALLLLY hated it when I said that.

Good! That's how you know you're on the right track! Don't be a DICK (you're going for "loving, but firm"), but do stand your ground, and you'll know you've hit the mark when she can't stand the consistency. I had to be like a broken record with my wife, with things like "End the affair, and we'll talk." and "End the affair, and we'll work on ALL of our issues -- mine, too." and (when she would list a bunch of reasons/blame on me) "I understand. That still doesn't give you the right to have an affair." or "We can't possibly engage in meaningful counseling as long as you've invited a third party into our marriage."

She'll hate ALL of it, but it needs to be said.

2)"You're acting like this because you're depressed. You need to get on meds." I should elaborate on this. Until I talked to my DB coach, I was sad a lot. Well, hell yeah. We weren't having any sex, no physical affection, and she was talking to the OM constantly and acting all lovey towards him. No sh!t I was depressed. Until my DB coach pointed out that I needed to stop because it was making things worse. So now, even though I am ALWAYS happy and upbeat (at least around her), all I hear is how I need to be on meds.

One day in the middle of all of our chit, when we were fighting (it's MUCH easier to preach the "keep your cool" thing than it is to practice it!!! I'd give myself a "B" grade in that, no more), and I said something like "You're acting crazy, Mrs. Choc. And I'm not the only one who feels that way." She screamed at me "AT LEAST I'M NOT THE ONE WHO'S HAVING TO TAKE MEDICATION!!!" Ouch. Later, I thought of what I SHOULD have said, and I got an opportunity to say it another day, when she brought up the anti-depressants my doctor had prescribed for me. "Honey, my personal medication history is really none of your business, but I'm not going to apologize for doing what's necessary to maintain my sanity around our kids, and carry out my responsibilities around here."

So help me out here. How long does it take for the lightbulb to go on? What are the signs that she's starting to realize that SHE screwed up?

Great question. But the answer's not going to be what you want to hear. You may see NOTHING for weeks -- even months. As others have pointed out to you on this thread, only SHE can make the decision to recommit to working at her marriage with you. But even once she does, she may show very little remorse (some do, some don't), and even that will come and go. Even though I had been warned about this, by NOP and others, I was simply STUNNED that less than a day or two after my wife's tearful, gut-wrenching apology and begging me to take her back, she was GIVING ME SH!T about stuff again. She would later apologize, and then do it again a few days later. Lather, rinse, repeat. This is the brain chemicals working (just Google PEA "brain chemicals" and read up on it; it's phsysiological fact, and it even shows up on CAT scans!), and until she has ended ALL CONTACT with him, and maintained no-contact for several months, will it completely go away.

NO...I DON'T want to go to counseling, because I know what her motivation is. She wants to cure ME of my "insecurities" and my "depression" so she can continue her little warped fantasy with the OM without me hassling her. Yet, if I refuse to go to counseling, then "I don't want to work on the marriage." I'm screwed either way.

It may seem that way, but you just need to maintain your stance of "I do NOT want a divorce. I am willing to work on our marriage, and that includes a good, pro-marriage counselor. But I won't waste my time, nor our family's finances on counseling so long as you're in an active affair. End it, and we'll go to counseling." If she says "I'm willing to work on this, but you won't go," then simply repeat "End the affair, and I'll make the appointment." If she tells others (and she WILL) "Bomb50 won't go to counseling with me," then tell those people that you are willing to put ALL of the marital issues on the table, and work with a MC, as soon as your wife ends her affair, and that she has refused to do so. Ask for their help in getting her to end it (close friends and family only; don't air your "dirty laundry" to acquaintances!)

By the way, she hasn't cut off her communication with the OM, but he's really cut down on how often and how long he lets her talk to him. And he keeps the conversation really mundane. This is really pissing her off...I can tell. I'm really screwing with her world, and she can't wait to get me off her back. She made this snide little comment the other day: "I don't know why the MC hasn't called me back yet. I'm sure she could hear the desperation in my voice." Yeah, thanks.

I agree with Lillie's assessment. I think there is some new "trouble in paradise" since you confronted your wife and did some limited exposure, but you probably lost some ground when you capitulated. Your wife wants a safe place to land (most infidels do, and nearly all FEMALE ones do), and you've messed up their little world. This is why you want to stay the "look-good/smell-good" one, and be the steady, strong voice. I will warn you, tho, this (the "trouble in paradise") will probably come and go, and you'll be able to tell by your wife's moods. When she's happy, that's BAD. When she's depressed and withdrawn, that's GOOD. I know that sounds strange, but I was warned about this, and found it to be ENTIRELY true.

So...there's how I feel right now. I think you can tell I'm going through the grieving process here. Right now I'm in the anger stage. In my earlier post, you heard a little bargaining. An hour from now I'll be telling myself I blew this completely out of proportion (denial). When I go to bed tonight I'll be crying in my pillow over what I've lost (depression).

Dude, this is ENTIRELY understandable! Give yourself a break; be kind to yourself. Cry all you want (I cried nearly every day); just don't do it in front of (or on the phone with) your wife! You need to find the middle ground -- what I called "the narrow path." Someone else above, I think it was Hairdog, recommended that you make a list of boundaries that are "dealbreakers" to you, and also to write down what you want. THIS needs to be your daily roadmap, NOT the moods you are feeling in your head and in your heart right now.

Sorry for the long post, and I know you must feel overwhelmed right now. But you need to listen to what we're saying here, call your wife on her behavior, and let HER stew in it awhile, and make her decision.

Then we can help you with the aftermath.

Choc.

[bombardier50]

Choc,
Thanks man...I've read your post about six times over and over, and as I did, I started to feel my cajones growing back.

Enough of this. No more tears man. I got a lot of life ahead of me. She can either go with me for the wild ride, or she can derail and hang with one of these other nitwits she's decided to give her heart to. It's her choice. I've given her 23 years of faithful love, and I've raised her two stepkids and one of our own. And they've grown up to be men, with wives and kids. If she wants to pitch it all so she can have some weird relationship with my best friend, fine. Screw her. It's her choice.

So that's it. She can stay with me and have lots of love, lots of good sex, lots of memories of loving her grandkids and great grandkids. Or she can pitch all that in the trash and have to explain why she dumped her husband and be forced to introduce her lame boyfriends to everyone in the family for all of eternity.

As you can tell, I have dunked myself in Jack Daniels and Steve Earle. Time to be a man. Time to be myself. Time for her to choose.

Wish me luck.