Still hopeful for some pleasant surprises

[SirPrizeMe]

Good advice, Baltoman. Waiting for the holidays is a good idea. I want to make this Christmas a good one for them, with lots of gifts and lots of time with cousins and aunts and uncles, although I know that they all want to see their parents "lay down the weapons" and get back together.

Also I agree that her affair is my business. It is something I disapprove of, strongly. It's just that there is not much I Can do about her behavior.

About moving back to that house - I have an alternative approach I am working on - almost the same. Tell me what you think.

The financial reality is, we cannot afford the house she and the kids are currently living in. I just cannot afford to keep paying for it. The reality is; We need to sell that house. Now. We *can* afford the house we moved out of, across the country. The area has a much lower cost-of-living, and in fact the mortgage on the old 5 bedroom house costs about as much as rent on a 3 br condo in our new area.

Let's see, I could live in a cheap 3 br condo (complete with a "parking slot") in a new neighborhood, among strangers. Or, for the same money, I could live with my kids, in the house we designed and built, with a garage, a neighborhood park, schools in walking distance, old friends and siblings nearby.

I'm thinking I want to move back *there*, get the kids back into that house, get them re-enrolled in their old school there, change my job, and invite W to move near us. We'll be near old friends, my siblings (their cousins), near W's parents, near W's siblings. We'll have a better financial situation, and so on. Surprise! She is not happy about this!

I don't know how practical this is, I haven't spoken with my attorney. But it is the course I am pursuing.

[Baltoman]

It sounds great in theory but I have no idea of the practicality. Since you left, it may be hard to convince a judge that you will need to sell the house. It would probably be easier to pull off if you were living there.

Here's a thought. Assuming that she agrees that you cannot continue to afford the house regardless of your marital status, perhaps you should broach the subject of moving back in due to the need to start getting the place in shape for sale. Then you can work on being lovingly detached and start DB'ing more effectively.

[SirPrizeMe]

Interesting idea, Balto, But....
I moved out because she was still talking to OM. She continues with OM to this day. I'm not moving back in. I drew a line. Maybe it was a bad move (Ultimatims and all) but I made it a long time ago. I drew the line. I'm not backing up now.

She changed the locks. Fine. It's no longer my house. Then it is no longer my mortgage, either!

We really (REALLY) cannot afford this house. She doesn't need to agree. The math is plain. Part of our problem is that I've deferred to her financial decisions over the past 16 months and we are now $25,000 in debt. This is not a discussion any longer. We're selling the house. We cannot afford it. Unless she gets a job, quick, we're selling it because I'm not going to pay for it anymore. And I'm not moving into it.

She locked me out and I'm going to continue to pay the mortgage? Seriously? Um.... No.

I don't think she has yet realized what her decisions and choices mean. She will, shortly.

I love her and want her to come back but I will not finance her affair; I will not appease her while she continues to carry on with that other man. I will not continue to cover up her financial mess. She can have her other man if she wants him, but I won't help her do it.

[Trixi]

SPM,
I think Balto's point is that there is a chance that you have put your legal standing/leverage in jeopardy. An attorney can let you know for sure.
Just because you drew a line in the sand doesn't mean that you are on the best side of the line; it should be the other way around- SHE gets out so SHE can continue with her choices. SHE is inconvenienced.

Anyway, it's a moot point now. I think the most important thing is to protect yourself legally- and that might include moving back in. The longer you are out, the greater the precedent set- maybe you can just make a quick phone call to one to confirm you aren't negatively impacting your position.

[SirPrizeMe]

Thanks for your concern Trixi.
I have legal advice. My attorney does not counsel me to move back in, but some other attorneys (who I am not paying) have counseled exactly that.

Like I said , I am trying to balance, to walk the line. I'd still like to reconcile which means I don't want to be provocative and argumentative. On the other hand, I do need to protect my legal rights. I'm trying to figure out that balance.

While W has said to me privately "you never spent any time with the kids" and "you were never involved", these are flat lies, maybe something she invented to make herself feel better about "her case" and what she is doing. I have the kids now for 5 days before Christmas. It's nice to spend time with them!

on the question of selling the house she is living in - I floated the idea to her, both in person and through my attorney, that I would like to consider moving back to Pittsburgh. My attorney asked me lots of questions, like

• where would you live? (the house we still own)
• what about schools? (right nearby, same schools they left a year ago)
• what about your job? (already discussed with my boss - a work-from-home arrangement)
• what about the kids' friends? (tons of friends back in the old neighborhood)
• where are your parents? her parents? (they are near where I would move)
• what about OM? if he is back there, then that could be a reason for her to object to moving. (he is not there)
• on the other hand if OM is where we live now, and if she has an active relationship with him that could lead to more, that could be a reason for her to object to moving. (he is not here either, and she tells me she has no active relationship with the man.)

In the end my attorney said "it makes a lot of sense; i don't know why you wouldn't move back."

W reacted poorly to the idea. I first mentioned it on the phone about a week ago. I described it as something I was considering, not something that was decided. I explained why I was considering it. She called me irrational, said I was acting unilaterally and unfairly, said I was making an emotional decision. It was surreal. I requested that we stop arguing, then I spoke with my kids, who were with her at the time. Then I spoke with W again after all the kids. I apologized for the "surprise". She again started up with the argument. I told her I did not want to argue about it, only wanted to apologize for the surprise; suggested maybe we could set up some time to talk about it more calmly. She agreed but reluctantly. I was calm the entire time.

[Just as with all the other times I am sure she will report this as me being "angry". Any time she disagrees with me she believes and remembers me as "angry" regardless how quiet and calm my voice is.]

My attorney also contacted her attorney with the same idea.

Nothing back yet, from either of these efforts.

[hope2wrkitout]

Hi SirPrizeMe--

I am so very sorry for your situation. We are all in the same boat and the holidays make it especially hard. My suggestion to you is this- don't let her off the hook. Do whatever you need to do to make this liveable and easy for you. You are hurting enough. She wanted the D and so she needs to accept the consequnces that come with it. That means if she needs to work,help pick up the slack, and move out of the family home that is what it means. Marriage is so not just about love and being happy. Of course we all want to be in love and happy, but marriage also has financial implications, and emotional implications, and physical implications, and convenient implications. No one ever thinks about it when they decide to holler divorce. My husband said he was not happy and he was not going to try in our marriage I told him divorce was not what I wanted, but no way in hell was I going to live with him in the same house screwing me when he felt the urge toying with my emotions all the while planning for our future divorce. I told him if he was not going to try he needed to go. He left and now he is moaning about having to pay the rent and the bills when he is not living here. It is not my problem. You should have thought about that when you said you wanted out. I just feel like if you are willing to work on it and she does not want to then she has to accept the consequences that come along with it. Fight for your kids, get your house and tell her honey if you want to work on it and come home we are here for you and if you don't that's okay too, but I won't continue to support you as though we are married. It is not about making her pay because she does not want to be with you, it is about protecting what you have and making sure you are going to be OK. She did what she thought she had to do to be OKAY, you do the same.

Melissa

[SirPrizeMe]

Melissa, thanks for the support.

I know you are right that she needs to "experience the consequences of her actions", but the trick for me is about balance. I am trying to balance that part, with my willingness to change, and to accept her back.

We will have to sell the house and she will have to move. She is not going to like this. Furthermore if we divorce, I expect to move (with my job, my income, and my kids) back to my hometown. With no income or other reason to keep us from moving, she will have to move, too, if she wants to continue a relationship with her kids. (I fully expect her to do this). Again this will not make her happy.

Too bad! It's not what I wanted either!

[SirPrizeMe]

Lots to tell.

Today is Christmas. Last night I spent the evening at my sister's house with my siblings and all of their kids - 16 of em in that generation. It was great fun. This is something my family has done for 20 years, going back to when I was a teenager and my parents were around. My W has been included in the last 18 or so of those get-togethers.

This year she and I are splitting time with the kids over the holidays. She came to my sister's house, after half my siblings had departed. Despite my requests and coaching beforehand, 2 of my sisters were pretty tense about W even being there. This disappointed me, as I think my sister's behavior was really counterproductive to my DB desire and efforts. (this sister and my W had been close) One other sister, who had already left, brought a gift for W, which was nice. Remember W has filed divorce papers against me. My sister, devout Catholic, is giving her christmas gifts. A very nice, welcoming, peacemaking gesture, I thought. W was pleased with the gift.

My kids had spent the last 4 days with my nieces and nephews, and with my siblings. We all had a blast. We laughed a lot. It was great to experience it. My W has just one nephew on her side - an infant. So there are no built-in chums on her side of the family for my kids. My kids like "my side" of the family more, not that they even think about the distinction.

Anyway.....From my sister's house, W took the kids to her sister's house, where she had a tree set up. I followed her, in a separate car, carrying a santa-bag full of presents. When I got to the house, W opened a bottle of wine. A nice friendly touch. We sat and shared a drink and chatted. I complimented her hair, which looked really good, and her outfit (A new top I had not seen, with some nice slacks I had given her last xmas). I tried to mirror her, physically. We talked about her family, her mom, her sister and brother. Normally we would visit all of them for the holidays, but this year W scheduled those visits without me. Her mom is not well. W had hoped to spend some enjoyable time with her mom, but her mom is older and sadly, is experiencing the onset of alzheimer's. It really stinks for her mom, but also for W, who feels as if she is "losing" her mom. I empathized. We had talked about this previously, before the separation. Now it was happening.

After we were sure the 4 kids were safely asleep, W and I, just the two of us, arranged the presents under the tree, just like we have done for the past 14 years. For me it was pure pleasure.

I think with the money problems we've been having, W was anxious about Christmas, thought maybe it would be pretty bleak. But I was determined to not let that happen for the kids. I think Christmas is more than the toys and presents you get, that sharing time with family is the greatest gift, but it doesn't hurt to impress your 11-yr old son with a new Xbox 360, or to surprise your 9-yr old daughter with a new watch.

This year we shopped separately, so as I put the presents I bought and wrapped under the tree, I told her about each one. I was very excited for the kids about all this, I had put a lot of thought and effort into making Christmas pleasant for them. She mostly watched as I did this; she was impressed with the pile of loot. She wondered where the money was coming from. I didn't respond to this. (I am borrowing from friends but did not choose to share this information with her)

By this time it was late. We separately got ready for bed. I was to sleep with our D9 in a bed, and W with our D5. Before retiring, W came out to show me her new silk PJ's. Very nice. I went to bed, then got up and went to her bed, told her I was glad I was here, and that I was looking forward to Christmas morning. She agreed - she was looking forward to it, too. Then I went to bed. There was no pressure for anything physical. Actually I am not interested at the moment - I am really just focusing on enjoying my time with her, and being enjoyable to her.

The next morning we had our traditional, tear-into-the-presents thing. The only difference was I didn't get a gift for W. I had gotten her a card and asked the kids to sign it. My message was simple: "Merry Christmas". My D5 wrote a note to W, and signed my name (so cute, it was obvious it was written by her). The note read, "Dear W, I am sorree I yelled at you. Mery Krismis. (signed me)". So sweet.

Obviously the arguments we had in the house have affected our D5; She thinks that the reason I am out of the house is because I yelled at W and W is angry with me for it. Anyway I didn't coach D5 to write this, I never even discussed it - writing that apology on my behalf was her own initiative. But obviously D5 wants W to reconcile with me. W noticed this note, but did not comment further on it.

Anyway the entire morning was very enjoyable. W and I looked at each other and smiled often as the kids opened their loot. Just like a family. Just like the old days.

Then it was time for W to take the kids to her father's house. Normally I would go, too. But not this time. Oh well. Before she left, W kissed me on the cheek! First time in maybe 8 weeks! Yahooo! We wished each other a merry christmas. I left, feeling happy for the time we spent together, yet also feeling a little left out.

All in all I felt I made the most of my time with W. We shared a bottle of wine. I got to listen to her. I complimented her looks. We shared lots of joy with our beautiful kids. She gave me a peck on the check. Some good stuff there. I'll take it all!

One day at a time.

[SirPrizeMe]

After that, I went to my other sister's house. She has a nice family, 5 kids, the youngest is 12. Her husband is a good guy. It was good to just hang there. I read a funny book for a while, had some good laughs. Then I needed a nap. After that I hung with my nephews and they taught me Kendama, while I taught them how to juggle. Then it was time for dinner again. After dinner we played some family games. It was a really enjoyable day.

At the end of the night, it was time to leave, so I said Merry Christmas to everyone. I won't see them again soon. As I walked out the door to my car, alone, I was desperately lonely aain.

God, I miss my family. Moments ago, I woke up, and the first thing that hits me is loneliness. At times like this I wonder why it all happened. Why can't we just get back to the simple pleasure of just being a family? Why is this so hard?

I take heart in reading other people's stories here, stories so similar to mine. The people going through the same confusion, the same pain, the same trials. I take heart and gather strength but it's still damn lonely and hard.

[SirPrizeMe]

From the changes-in-me dept,

I need to get more comfortable with casual touching.

It was almost as if, after years of my wife's rejection of my sexual advances, I became obsessed with mere touching. Any touch from her and I would immediately think "sex!". And for a similar reason, I think, I avoided touching other adults. Maybe I subconsciously linked touching to sex, and I didn't want sex with those other people, so I didn't touch them. (although I always hugged my kids a ton, wrestled with them, bathed them, etc - plenty of non-sexual touching there).

My "issue" with touching sounds weird, and to me it seems totally foreign. I am not a sex weirdo, I don't think so anyway, but I have to admit I am now a little weird about touching. So now I am working on that. I am going out of my way to touch people when I talk to them, to give friendly hugs more often. Lots more non-sexual touching. I am thinking about taking a therapeutic massage, which would have been very difficult for me, a couple months ago. First, because it seems overly self-indulgent (my cheap side showing) and second because it is intimate touching with a stranger, which is weird.

At the same time I notice that I still miss making love with her, very much. The other night, when W and I shared a bottle of wine, I had absolutely no plan or explicit desire to get physical with her. But just sitting and watching her face, just talking to her, I found I was physically aroused, very strongly. My head was saying "just listen to her, share a conversation" but my body was ready for sex right then! I had trouble concentrating. In the end I didn't say anything or act on my desires, but it bothered me that I couldn't just talk with her, without wanting her sexually.

I'm still married and not interested in having my desires satisfied by anyone other than my wife. I don't know what to do about this. I'm worried that she'll see my desire for sex right now, and it will scare her off.

I think I am going to get that book today, about the sex starved marriage, maybe it has some insight for me.