A personal journey through Karen's eyes

[Dom R]

My point is that underlying their ability to happily "trade" is an acknowledgment that their spouses needs/wants are valid. Let's say that what the man in the example wanted/needed was for his wife to engage in a different threesome every Saturday

I think that bringing up "examples" that are completely in violation of the whole principles of marriage.. kinda nullifies the argument

I think that there are at least two categories of a spouses needs and wants, when they are not "shared wants".

1 category is, "well, that thing is not important to me, but it doesnt violate my morals, so ok".

and the other category is, "that is antithetical to my concept of marriage".

Maybe you were referring to stuff in the first category, and that it's important for each person to acknowlege, "yes, that is important for you. I accept that, and recognize that".

I agree that is crucial in a marriage: that each person recognize, and accomodate, things that the other person wants and needs, so long as it doesnt violate the marriage in principle.

To look at your more "normal"? example:.. erm.. wait, i'll save that for the end, because it disrupts the flow

Does anybody really believe that Anna Nicole Smith had a happy marriage with that old rich guy?

it's quite possible.
Ok, YOU wouldnt like being sexual with an old wrinkly prune. But there are other women, who are in relationships with, and even marry, men who most others would consider physically repulsive.

Was it "love"? eh... probably not. But did they "make each other happy"? quite probably.
Was the old guy happy to be boning her? Umm.. i'm thinking "yes".
Was she happy to get to initially play with, and then get all to herself, a gazillion dollars?
probably.

Now.. she may have had other MAJOR self-esteem problems, that overall made her miserable. But was she happy with the marriage itself? i'd say it's quite possible.

I think the same sort of problem-solving would apply to an issue like how often vacuuming should be done. The person opposed to vacuuming needs to acknowledge that they don't exactly love walking around on crumbs and the person in favor of frequent vacuuming needs to acknowledge that hauling the old vacuum around isn't exactly a trip to Cedar Point.

I completely agree there. Just because you care about someone, and want to make them happy... doesnt mean that you automatically become their house-slave or something. And if they do something for you, for the sole reason that you like them to do it, not becuase they value it for themselves.... a decent amount of gratitude and appreciation is definately called for!
Not to mention, if you really wanted the whole house spic n span, but they only happen to have cleaned 4 rooms out of 5... it's still something good that they did for you, so be nice about it.


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ok, now the out of place example from you:

A typical way in which the more conventional scenario you describe might fall apart would be if the woman started to feel like she had to have sex with the man because after 20 years of being home cooking she didn't feel like she had the ability to financially support herself.

What you seem to be describing, is an attitude change in the woman. I'm not sure how it fits in with the theme of "acknowleging that each others' wants and needs are valid". Seems to be a different topic. Might be interesting to start a separate thread on that one.


there are lots of different ways to reply to it, that I actually wrote up.. and then erased... because it depends on why she suddenly started feeling that way after 20 years.
Ideally, though... her feelings could be best resolved, if she actually *gasp* talked to her husband, about what she felt was lacking in her own life, and they brainstormed together for ways to make her feel more secure/fulfilled/...whatever she was missing.

To put it another way... peoples' "primary wants and needs" change over time. This is a fact of life.
A good marriage, IMO, is where each person is committed to recognize that, and also committed to try to meet their spouses' needs in the future, whatever they may be.

Rather than copping out with, "well, after 20 years, you and I are different people than when we married; lets get divorced and find other people";
Instead choosing a road of, "wow.. you have grown into a different person than the person I married... we have new learning and experiences together we can pursue now, that I never even imagined when we first got married. How exciting!"

AKA: Choosing to "grow together, not grow apart".