The End or Just a Begining?

[dh4320]

Atlas,

I feel that your W is playing a bit of a game, as you have given me some very good advice i will lend my opinion, carry through with the plans as you ve stated but i would detach a bit from her like you said she talks the talk but you havent seen her make a step to walk the walk....

[Heimlich]

Lots of good stuff I wish I had thought of, Atlas. One thing, what would baby steps from your W look like? You still love her, otherwise you wouldn't be agonizing over this. My suggestion is to make a list of things that would indicate that she truly is making strides towards being a person a sane man would want to be involved in and look at them periodically so that if she starts taking those steps, you'll notice.

Other question/point: How screwed would you be if you did the agreement that you were talking about but put the D on hold? She's scared as much as you are. Let's assume she's not playing a game. She means it when she says that she wants back in your life. Would extending that bit of trust to her help her turn back towards you?

I don't know, she's all over the place, but just something to think of.

BD

[Atlas]

Heim,

Good questions and those are the ones I have to decide upon before the new year, because I'm not doing this much longer. Thats not to say I don't stand for this R, but I'm not going to keep standing for this M.

Well what a night. Started off pretty bad with W being snippy and cold. Finally I just said, in a nice voice, you know if its going to be like this, I just as soon go home. She said fine, when I moved towards the car to leave, ok wait, I'm sorry. Let me take a few minutes, I didn't start this night right. Then OMG! She apologizes.

Went X-mas shopping and went way overboard. We were having a blast, she kept saying how she hadn't had fun like that with me in a long time. Then she asked if she could take me to dinner.

In the car W starts the R talk. I tried to back out of it, my goal for the night was to not mention anything. Well her goal was to mention it all. She basically dumped her guts, not about what she had done, but how she felt for doing it. Apoligized repeatedly for the A. Said she can't say sorry for leaving, she felt dead and says I brought her there.

This went on through the first part of dinner. She confused that the OM dumped her. Oh, thats way were back huh? Didn't say it. She talked about her EN's being meet by him. Then she woke up one day, and was like I have a good H, athletic, tall, hell of a better lover, and I'm with a short, fat, slob who looks like the little kid off the partridge family. Says it went down hill from there until he dumped her, and then she was totally distraught. She said not only did I lose my M, H, home, a guy with potential, I was dumped by a dork. She is going on and on about karma and how she got what she deserved, and she sees I'm not a bad guy cause karma dealt me with everything, the house, kid time, etc. Finally, I just can't take it anymore, I've heard enough, sick of validating etc. I said you think I won? I've lost the only thing that mattered to me, my life is empty, so don't for one sec think your the only one hurt here, you have no idea what you have done to me. At which point W is crying. I wasn't rude when I said it, but I'm just sick of hearing it.

I guess I should be grateful something is being said at all. So the rest of dinner was great. Even some flirting. She was feeding me desert, she made a face and moan at one bite, and I said boy it's been a while since I've seen that face. She giggled and gave another.

Went and got the rest of the stocking stuffers, much more comfortable and some flirting at the store. Now she is back at the house and spending the night, she made it clear it is on the couch for her. Damn!

As for my thinking. Nothing changes from above. After new years, I'm pushing for the D. W even said during her speech tonight that she thinks to make it right we would have to D and then remarry, which she would like to do. She said she wants to make sure I have the chance to run, because she says what she did in unforgivable, and so she wants me to have the total out. Says she is a good person, but she made life's biggest mistake and I'm too good of a guy to have to live with someone like that.

So there it is. Wow what a night, I'm totally emotionally drained. I think I'm going to be single forever, this whole R thing is too much.

[Just_Me]

she thinks to make it right we would have to D and then remarry, which she would like to do. She said she wants to make sure I have the chance to run, because she says what she did in unforgivable, and so she wants me to have the total out.

That's fair. You should have a total out. Personally, I think it will make it easier on the two of you. She will be aware that the relationship isn't a given and will need to do the work to keep you. I'm sure that she has a fair amount of guilt, but right now it feels to me that her driving need is security and not letting you get completely away. What if the grass looked greener again elsewhere? I guess I get the sense that she's still at a point where she would pursue a perception of greener grass.

I'm struggling to understand your situation. So, she wants to be with you? Or does she express uncertainty about that? Talking about getting remarried sounds like she wants to be with you, but her actions don't really seem that way. She wants to be with you so much that she sleeps on the couch? It sounds more like she wants some aspects of a marriage without the whole ball of wax. Do you get the impression that she'd be happy enough to just be roommates with more security, but not with the obligation of providing for your needs? I don't know what I'd do in your situation....I think one thing I'd feel comfortable saying when she talks about remarriage is, "we've got a long way to go before I could contemplate that", or something put a litle more diplomatically. As things stand now, can you even envision asking her to marry you again?

I don't know what your plan was for the holiday season. Was it to hang out together through the holidays? Do you have any "me time" planned? A couple days without her and the R talks sounds refreshing and maybe what you need to refocus on yourself. Is that in the cards?

[Atlas]

You should have a total out. Personally, I think it will make it easier on the two of you. She will be aware that the relationship isn't a given and will need to do the work to keep you. I'm sure that she has a fair amount of guilt, but right now it feels to me that her driving need is security and not letting you get completely away. What if the grass looked greener again elsewhere? I guess I get the sense that she's still at a point where she would pursue a perception of greener grass.

Funny you say that, that was exactly my response to her. She says that isn't the case, that she isn't dating and won't, but wants me too. Hogwash, I don't buy it. I think she is scared of losing me, she knows it, but I think she is just as scared of coming back to a M where she felt alone. So I think she wants to keep fence sitting and see what passes by or if she can feel secure emotionally with me again.

I'm struggling to understand your situation.

Sorry Just_me, but you will have to get in line on this one. Hehe!

So, she wants to be with you? Or does she express uncertainty about that?

There is uncertainty, she discusses both. She tells me how she wants to be with me, but she is scared as he!!

Talking about getting remarried sounds like she wants to be with you, but her actions don't really seem that way.

That is all it's been for a while, a lot of talk the talk, but no walk the walk.

She wants to be with you so much that she sleeps on the couch? It sounds more like she wants some aspects of a marriage without the whole ball of wax.

Totally agree. I don't ask her to come over, she just shows up, talks about going home all night typically, then "Oh is it really that late, I'm staying here."

Do you get the impression that she'd be happy enough to just be roommates with more security, but not with the obligation of providing for your needs?

Yes and no. She is worried about housing. Talks about throwing money down a drain with rent, but I don't think W is the type that would move back in without a R that involved meeting each others needs. Um, basically, I don't think she would move back in unless we had a sexual R.

I don't know what I'd do in your situation....I think one thing I'd feel comfortable saying when she talks about remarriage is, "we've got a long way to go before I could contemplate that", or something put a litle more diplomatically.

Good point!

As things stand now, can you even envision asking her to marry you again?

Honestly, until last night no. But something came back over me last night and I thought and felt like I know, sounds cheesy I know, but I think even if I leave, break it all off, etc., I think we would still end up together again eventually. Sounds weird, but were too close and too good a friends. Always have been. That doesn't say I can envision myself asking her to marry me again, that hasn't really crossed my mind, I think one reason being is if we do work things out, I'm thinking a minimum of two years before I remarry her.

I don't know what your plan was for the holiday season. Was it to hang out together through the holidays? Do you have any "me time" planned? A couple days without her and the R talks sounds refreshing and maybe what you need to refocus on yourself. Is that in the cards?

Plan is that she takes S to her family X-mas eve party. I go to my families alone. We meet later that night at the house, get S down, spend the night getting things ready, have X-mas morning. I'll make breakfast. Then I'm taking S to my families house for X-mas day, and W goes her way. There will be plenty of me time. She did ask last night if I would spend new years with her. "What no hot date?" "That's what I'm trying to get right now." So a good sign, and honestly, I'd rather be with her for it, instead of toasting with the single buddies, I think that would just make me feel horrible.

Thanks for the response.

[Just_Me]

Okay,

I feel a little better about this situation. I like that you feel like good friends. Does she feel the same? I suspect she does. Maybe she is fence sitting some, but from what you wrote, I think she's being cautious, but it is moving a positive direction. So, ride this out...low expectations, be yourself, enjoy what you do have with her, and see where it goes. You've taken her worst...so seeing where this goes shouldn't be so bad. Good luck.

Me

[Not Much Left]

A
I just cant keep up w/ all the posts these days. Just wanted to say hi.

C

[Atlas]

CVA,

I can't keep up withmyself either. AHHHH!

Just_me,

Seriously I love your posts there is no messing around, and you ask the right questions.

I know something is there, but it will take time. She has to do a lot of identity crises issues to deal with. W has never chosen friends well, so things always went bad. When she did pick good friends, oh H finished some other damn school, were moving again. She is pretty resentful about all that. So now she has some good friends, they are all D'ing, had physically abusive spouses. They all like me and wonder what she is doing D'ing, but I get the lonely thing. I have to keep changing.

Unfortunetly, this crises of hers is going to take time, more then I'm willing to stay married for. So for the sake of my S and my financial future, and she agrees with this. After new year we settle, she fixes her head. Then we go from there. Who knows. Told her I would still help her with money and anything else she needs, but I just don't think it wise that we are legally M.

Well she has already called me once and I her once today to chit chat. She asked what is up for tonight. Said "Um, I'm watching our S, why you want to come over?" Sarcastically. Just got a maybe.

[Atlas]

This is a horrible question, but I need some suggestions on how to approach this. W and I are spending X-mas and now possibly New Years together. There is some flirting, but she isn't reaching out and touching or anything.

Well you know the holidays and such, and from my past experiance the ML could happen rather quickly. Not that it would be something permanetly back in our R, but some physical fun for the holidays.

Well I will not touch my W until I have a clean bill of health from the Dr. Not after the A. I don't think there is a nice way to say it, but all I can think of, is "W I know we aren't planning on being intimate, but in case anything does happpen would you please get checked."

Could be a huge backslide, which I also think would be a big red light. I don't think there is a way to approach STD talk without head on, and so be it if someone is mad or hurt.

[ann25]

Yikes... that's tricky.

I'd say watch yourself and don't let it go that far, but if you think it's a real possibility, it's definatly not safe without knowing where she's been.

I heard on a show, "talk sex with sue johanson" (love that show... hehe) that when a couple was starting to spend more time together, she recommended the W to tell the H something like this "As we start spending more time together, i think there is a possibility of us taking this further than expected. I trust you, but I'm not sure about OW (OM in your case). Maybe we could both go get checked out just to be safe"

I don't know. Good luck, hopefully you can get some better advice than mine...