Maybe not too complicated to understand

[Hurtin4certain]

Michael... I love that article on detaching. Im going to re-read that everytime I start to struggle.

Thanks for sharing.

[Michael Mc C]

I know what you mean H4C! I was thinking about getting it laminated and keeping it in my pocket!

[LL44]

Heck, this whole summer I would put myself to sleep by chanting the serenity prayer like some crazy person.

[Michael Mc C]

Okay, back to my normal thread. Thank you to everyone who has provided some insight, opinions and recommendations regarding the pursuit of MC while we are in our current situation (in-house separation, she's involved with long-distance OM, she sees no chance nor has any desire for reconciliation).

For anyone interested, the link to that thread in which I asked for advice is below:

Advice Regarding Counseling

We have left it off with the following:
1) I will be picking up The Five Love Languages (thanks Rob)
2) W and I will attend our first counseling session tomorrow afternoon.
3) I will be taking a self-improvement approach with counseling.
4) W has agreed that we will discuss our goals and C's approach. If our C does not meet either of our requirements, we will scrap this one and find one that will.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[Michael Mc C]

Something seems to be up with W and OM. Of course I would love for him to disappear, maybe start dating someone that doesn't happen to be married to me...

W has been in a great mood since the day they met up again online and, with the exception of our interactions, she is rarely short with anyone anymore. For the past couple of hours (while playing her game) she has steadily become sullen and withdrawn.

In the 5 hours that she has been home from work she has had 7 beers - think she'd have more if she didn't clean me out! This behavior isn't too out of the ordinary as she can kill a 1.5L bottle of wine during a gaming session but those usually last between 8 and 10 hours (she played her game for 3 hours tonight and is now going to bed).

I know. I'm getting my hopes up here. I need to detach from whatever is going on with her. I guess every one of us gets that hope that the WAS relationship will end.

So, devil's advocate now. She started a new job on Monday. She hasn't worked since 2003. She's been tired and has had a bit of a cold. She's probably just trying to do the responsible thing and get some sleep so she can be alert for work on Thursday. Maybe she just needs to catch up on some sleep and relax a bit.

There. No speculation.
I know she stands all day.
I know going back to the workforce after an extended "leave" can be draining.
I know she's been sick.
I know she's had some late nights recently.

Anything else that I thought could be dragging her down is only conjecture and therefore I won't dwell on it (good or bad).

Sometimes all it takes is previewing my posts to see where I get off track and then get back to a better frame of mind.

Quick Note: Getting excited about counseling tomorrow. Hope W is feeling better, I'd like both of us to get the most out of this. I don't expect any magic bullets but I'm starting to feel that this is a necessary step for whatever our future may hold.

[Michael Mc C]

Today was our first session with C. W was just oozing with her lack of enthusiasm. She told me that she had to pick D13 up at 5:00 so she'd have to leave early (we assumed the session would be over at 5:00). I asked her to call a friend of ours whose D is also in cheerleading but she had many excuses why that wouldn't be possible. Not a good start.

C opened up with getting our family histories and then jumped right in (far from verbatim):

C : I'd like to know what brings you here. Who would like to start?

W : We've had problems before and started having problems again in the summer. I felt it before H did. But now I want a divorce. I'm here to minimize the damage.

C : How do you know what the damage will be? There is no crystal ball.

W : I know but H said he would fight the D if we didn't go to counseling.
<Not at all what I said and she knows it!>

C : How is he going to fight a divorce?

W : Well, not the divorce. The grounds for the divorce. I'm trying to work with him to make this as painless as possible.

Me: I'm here because after 20 years I want to learn how to love my wife the way she needs to be loved, and that includes everything. Showing love, appreciation and respect in a way she will receive it. I want to learn to communicate better and unlearn a lot of the habits we've taught each other.

C : How do you think you can do that? Your W sounds as if she's reached the end, she's fallen out of love and wants the marriage to be finished.
<I cringed. What the hell is she saying???>

C (To W): What is missing that makes you want this to be over after 14 years of marriage?

W : I'm not fulfilled. I'm a housecleaner, a maid. I make sure things are taken care of. I don't feel like a woman. I'm not excited in the marriage.

Me: If my actions appear to make you feel appreciated, or make you seem excited or you seem to feel loved, I will think that I'm doing my job. There's only so much I can do with the information I'm given.

C : You think of this as a job?

Me: No, not a job, lack of a better word right now. Fulfilling my role as a husband. Providing what W needs in our marriage.
<She really irked me with that comment. Maybe clarity IS better though.>

C went on examining W's complaints and asked me for some input. At first I thought she was going to take the route of "there's nothing that can be done with the two of you, your goals don't mesh" but she didn't.

C : It seems there's a pattern to the way the two of you interact.

M : A lot of how we treat each other and show our love and appreciation, even how we argue, is based on what we've taught each other over the years. We know what buttons to push to follow the "script" but these are apparently not healthy buttons.

C : So how do you think you can accomplish your goal?

M : Come to see a counselor who can help us dig through the mess to find out what we've been doing wrong AND try to find the right way of interacting.

C began speaking to W, almost exclusively, about plans after her D. Asking about income, custody, living arrangements, etc.

W : Well, there are a few things about this. H will keep the kids with him. He'll keep the house. He'll be the primary caregiver.

C : What? Why in the world do you think that? NJ is a <insert legal term for 50/50> state. Shared assets AND shared debts. 50/50. Since neither of you are millionaires the court will force you to sell the house. Since it's his family home, if he wants to keep it he'll have to buy you out. It's not a question of want you want to do, it's what the court will decide. The mother almost always gains custody of the children.

W : Well he has nowhere else to go. He has no family here. I can move to my mother's.

C : So you want H to take the kids, the house and you get your divorce and be free?

W : No, there's just no other way. I'm trying to work with him on this. That's why I'm here.

C : Is there a reason, and there very well might be, why the two of you can't continue with your current separation, staying in the house?

W : I wanted to but he won't be able to handle it.

M : Well, there's another aspect to this that hasn't been discussed.
<Talking about OM. If you remember, as long as she wasn't pursuing a relationship I was more than happy to share the house - fair or not it's what I'm capable of>

W : No, that's over. That's not an issue anymore. It wasn't realistic, it ended last night. I...

M : You don't owe me an explanation.

W (To C): I met someone, but that's over.

C : I think you're being too hasty.

W : I agree. I think the in-house separation can work.

C : No. I think your seeking a divorce might be too hasty considering the impact it will have. There appear to be many things you haven't taken into consideration. Divorce is easy to do, hard to live with. Marriage is hard to do, easy to live with.
<Or somthing like that. I liked it.>

Those are the highlights I guess. Our homework assignment is to go out on a date. Nothing crazy. It does not have to be romantic but regardless of how this ends up we need to lighten up and be able to tolerate each other's company.

Personally I'm concerned that a "date" will be too much like a test. Oh well, I've been working on my PMA and confidence. Maybe it's a good chance to test myself.

And I guess I know why W was in a slump last night - OM is gone once again. Not sure for how long. Not sure who made the decision. I did hear her crying after I went to bed. God, that's the worst part. To hear her cry kills me. I knew there was nothing I could do so I quietly shut my bedroom door.

I forgot to include W's comments that she would not want the marriage even if she found that it could be fulfilling. Her reason for this is because whatever changes were made would not last....

[Michael Mc C]

So you all thought the above would be enough adventure for me in a single night... Guess not. I sent an email to a friend and in the mail I mentioned that I have real concerns about W's apparent addictions - and I believe they really are addictions now - her online game and alcohol.

Both D11 and D13 have commented to me about the time spent on the game and they have commented to W about the drinking. S8 loves video games so he thinks EverQuest is cool. He also hasn't gone through D.A.R.E. so I'm not sure he is too aware of the affects of alcohol.

I thought I would try to touch on the subject tonight with W. If nothing else I wanted to plant a seed.

Her maximum time on the game in a single session was 14 hours. She averages approximately 4 hours a night now (I don't really keep track anymore though). As for drinking, she had 8 beers in 3 hours last night. Her normal drink is wine and in a single night she can kill a 1.5 liter bottle. So can I, I suppose, but not on a nightly basis. Tonight she was hitting boxed wine (much cheaper). I saw that she had about 1/3 of it so far (interestingly enough, that's 1.6 liters...)

I was downstairs when she said she was having a problem with the internet. I told her she should reboot. She was too tired so I stopped and asked if we could have a quick conversation. I told her I had concerns about the habits and that she seems to be escaping.

"Yes, I am probably escaping. But I don't want to talk about it tonight. I want to go to sleep, go to work tomorrow and just get through life day by day."

The inflection of that last bit was definitely in the key of "sad". I knew it had absolutely nothing to do with us, it was OM. The old me would have asked her to confirm this - I'm not sure why, maybe for validation or just to hear her admit once again that she has been unfaithful emotionally.

I didn't say anything more than "Okay, good night". A 180 for me.

I'm sure she didn't even notice the 180 but it wasn't meant for her. It felt so good to just let it drop. Sure it's small but it's something.

In the end, I'm not sure if a seed was planted or not.

Rob1231 - I found 5LL in a local B&N. Had hoped to pick it up tonight on the way to MC but was running late. I'll definitely have it by the end of the week.

[Michael Mc C]

Good morning all. I remember being in this exact same place back in late October. OM is "gone", W is miserable and shows no emotion towards anyone - unless contempt is an emotion, I get lots of that.

I recall that in the 4 weeks OM was gone the last time W was able to suck me back in and each time I got close to her she'd remind me that she wanted the D and would then say she had to move out (I think we had that conversation 4 times during that month).

I am working damn hard on the loving detachment right now. I have hopefully learned from my mistakes in the past. With Christmas right around the corner I know it's going to be really difficult to keep my head straight and to remain focused on me and the kids. I have the entire week off next week but, unlike the fateful week of Thanksgiving, W is now working and therefore we will NOT be on top of each other all week.

Which is too bad in a way because that week we had together was a lot of fun - just a bit premature.

[Michael Mc C]

Okay, remember that part about the loving detachment? Well, Christmas shopping makes that really really difficult. I'm in a fine mood but as I was packing up the car I realized I was in TOO fine a mood. Nothing wrong with enjoying some gift shopping but I was feeling in the groove. "W is going to love this!", "Wait until she opens this one!", etc. Just like last Christmas when things were normal...

Well, I decided that I love my wife. I don't believe that our sitch is reason enough to NOT show her some love on Christmas. I haven't gone crazy buying gifts and most will be from the kids anyway.

There's a chance that I'd be setting myself up for disappointment but I'm already sure that whatever gifts I get from her will be directly from my "wish list" with no extras thrown in based on what she knows about me. I think I'll be fine as long as I'm not expecting any "thoughtful" gifts (gifts that she gets because she just knows I'll love them, even though I've never mentioned them before in my life). She used to be pretty good at that.

[hopeforfuture]

Mike,
Just catching up on your thread and wanted to just throw some support your way. I glad to see that you are both in counseling and that the C is pro marriage. Problem though is that she sounds JUST like my wife with respect to the attitude. She's agreed to the counseling just to make things easier without really committing to fixing anything.

My recommendation...
Detach, detach, detach.

I recall that in the 4 weeks OM was gone the last time W was able to suck me back in and each time I got close to her she'd remind me that she wanted the D and would then say she had to move out (I think we had that conversation 4 times during that month).

I would hate to see this happen over again. Try not to let yourself get sucked back in to a false sense of security especially during the holiday season.

Your Christmas shopping also sounds just like mine. I had lots of ideas and saw many things that would be perfect for W, but there will be no gift exchange between us this year. There will only be the gifts from the kids.

Good luck this holiday. Shoot me an email if you want.