Here is the part I struggle with. How can you refrain from being critical when all you get is the going through the motion sex? Hell, that makes me feel less close, less loved, etc than not having intimacy at all. I tried scheduling and she told me essentially the same thing. She would be game but I could not complain that it wasn't "real" or passionate. We got through exactly one day and I could not keep my end of the bargain.
You need to use the "willingness" of the LD spouse in such a situation as a sort of platform on which to build desire. If you really trusted that your W was going to stick to the deal then if the sex was lacksadaisical on Day 1 but you know you will be able to get sex on Day 3, on Day 2 maybe you could just have sexual interaction up to the point of maximum achievable intimacy. I'm much more sexy outside of the context of my SSM simply because I am confident that I can get sex one way or another pretty easily. A schedule should give the HD spouse "confidence" that will allow him/her to "remember" how to be more sexy. OTOH, if you don't/can't trust your LD spouse to even stick to a schedule (my marital sich) then your whole marriage is rotten anyways and the sex problem is moot.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Boundaries are not threats. They are boundaries. Threats are not boundaries, they are threats.
Boundary: "I will not stay in a sexless marriage."
Threat: "If you don't give me more sex, I'm getting out of this marriage."
You may argue that the 'or else' is implied in a boundary. Depends on who is listening, I guess. All a boundary does is state what you will/won't do. It does not DICTATE another person's actions in the least. The other person is, always, free to choose.
Think of a "No Trespassing Violators Will Be Prosecuted" sign. I'm sure you've seen them before. I suppose you could call that a threat. To me, it is a clear indication of a boundary. It is NOT a threat. It is a promise.
Dom: ... Boundary: "I will not stay in a sexless marriage."
Threat: "If you don't give me more sex, I'm getting out of this marriage."
You may argue that the 'or else' is implied in a boundary. Depends on who is listening, I guess. All a boundary does is state what you will/won't do. It does not DICTATE another person's actions in the least. The other person is, always, free to choose.
I'm not sure how the other person is any more, or less, "free to choose", in either case. If you tell someone, "Do this, or I will ....", that person is still "free to choose" not to, and deal with your corresponding actions. Unless it's something like, "or I will use this gun on you".
I'd call a boundary, "a threat, with diplomacy".
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Reguardless...
I dont see "threat" vs "non-threat" as really that important. If some is touchy enough to hyperreact with "You're trying to Threaten/Control/Manipulate/.... Me !!!" when faced with a "Give me sex or i'm gone" situation... it probably doesnt matter too much how you phrase it; they're probably going to be like that.
I think the more important concept in boundaries, is not so much in avoiding offending the other person with your wording... but in identifying to yourself when you are reasonably justified in sticking up for something. To help you identify when you are protecting yourself, vs just trying to change something about your spouse that you dont like.
(even with that mindset, though, i've occasionally seen some people claim they were "enforcing a boundary" for themselves, when what they were really doing was trying to change someone else. it's tricky. sigh.)
Last edited by Dom R; 12/14/0712:12 AM.
My current status: june 2006. Wife ran out and filed D. Finalized Jan 11, 2010, after 12.5 years M. 3 wonderful sons caught in the middle
(even with that mindset, though, i've occasionally seen some people claim they were "enforcing a boundary" for themselves, when what they were really doing was trying to change someone else. it's tricky. sigh.)
Say to your H: "You've made your position clear. Thank you. Just so you know, though, I will be having passionate sex with someone. I'd like for it to be you."
Twice I have read your anger at two male posters because they pointed out maybe there could be something you were doing wrong. Or gave harsh advice or input. I think this may be the first thing to really think about. Relationships are a two way street. There isn't one partner that is perfect. Maybe just maybe there are things that you do or have done that push him away. There had to be a reason he was so unhappy he left. Though I do feel the way he did it was tasteless.
I think maybe blackfoot hit on something with the respect thing. Men need to feel respected. I am just wondering because you mentioned you have had two relationships while married. Do you think this could bother him at all? Also just curious has he had any other relationships since you two have been married?
I understand why your hurt and angry and even feel less desire for him. You do have a valid reason. But maybe he does to. maybe there are deep things he is feeling. Sometime's for a man when the relationship isn't right sex is the first thing to go.
Trying, LFL's h was LD from the start. And she did try, very hard, to fix her marriage. I think it's fair to say, in all honesty "I simply can't anymore".
Mind you I'm not at all convinced this is really it. LFL will prolly go back and forth quite a bit on this, given how she feels about keeping her family intact for the kids. But I think her position, right now, as it is, no matter if it changes tomorrow ... is fair. She's honest about where she is. And that deserves a ton of credit.
It's not her, it's you. You have that effect on some people Dom. Sandi reacted the same way. As do I, so you can't even say it's because you're telling us "truths we don't want to hear".
You can't get your point across if all you do is make people defensive.
I sometimes feel you're trying to hammer all these girl posters into how you wish your wife would have reacted. They're not her, nor are they you, nor can you pour your own determination into them. We're all different people at very different points in our lives than you, with very different beliefs.
LFL is a mature, intelligent woman. She'll figure it out.
Sometimes the best answer is, if you really want to help "don't just do something, stand there!".
PS: And would you mind losing that pseudo-paternalistic "I gave you homework and you didn't respond! *footstomp*" You did this with Sandi too. This is a free message board, and people DO NOT NEED TO RESPOND TO YOU AT ALL. No matter how many questions you asked them "for their own good". If they don't find it helpful they are FREE TO IGNORE IT. All advice is "take it or leave it" on here. Can't you get that through your thick head?
Holy sh!t! Do you think he has a sister in the practice? That's some pretty straightforward advice...especially for a first visit.
Of course, my W and I went to a MC for over a year and got zippo. The MC even told my W once that my physical "needs" were valid and that she should "ignore them at your peril."
LOL Hairdog... I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a sister but I did wonder if he has issues with his W and can relate. Seriously though - This wasn't our first time with our C. It's the first time we've tackled our sex issues head on where I've been angry and ready to give up.
He's a behavioral therapist and doesn't spend a lot of time mulling over the past or why feelings are holding us back. For most things he recommends that we change our actions to what we need/want them to be, create new habits. If the feelings don't follow, then it's time to discover what's holding us back. It's been wonderfully different from other C we've had.
I too had LFL's reluctance to forgive and stopped wanting to ML to H. I built a wall of protection around me and stubbornly complained about H's desire for sex while I was pushing him away and not trying to initiate or attract him. My thoughts were "why try and be rejected. He's hurt me so much, I'm not going there again, etc etc" Bitter stuff! It took one session with my C last spring to get me out of that mind set and on the right track with my thinking. He encourages goal setting and action rather than analysis and what he calls "excuse making that leads nowhere".
For instance, I can say "I can't be in a M without sex". He'd challenge this. He'd say "yes you can and you have been. The question is, are you going to choose to continue being in a M without sex?" Work to resolve the unhappiness. He says we tend to get confused and ride the fence because we don't like our choices, but life is full of tough choices. He says the choices are clear if we accept responsibility for our own happiness. I can leave H because my needs aren't being met, or I can stay. If H meets my needs, that's great, but if not, then the ball is in my court. I either leave, or I admit that sex is not the most important need my M is fulfilling. Like.. my need for my children to have a father might trump my need for a healthy sex life, therefore I choose to stay. If I make that choice I have to embrace the payoff of having a father for my kids and find another way to meet my sexual needs. I should not however, blame my H for me remaining in a SSM because I made a concious decision to sacrifice that for my kids. Blaming him will just lead to anger and resentment and that's not promoting happiness for me. I'll have to make peace with it, or be miserable.. still my choice. So, telling H that he should meet my needs if he wants to keep this marriage allows him to decide what he wants. His actions will communicate his choice. It's fruitless to keep asking and get stuck when someone's actions show their decision. He said this is when people get stuck because they keep trying and trying and getting the same answer (communicated by actions), yet they refuse to accept it. We get stuck and stop living because we want someone else to change, take responsiblity for our happness and blame them if they refuse.
Anyway, not to hijack, just some explanation about our C approach. He says it much better than I do! I just know his approach has helped a lot in other areas, I'm hoping it helps our physical R as much.
