Pieces are Coming Together

[Atlas]

I don't know that I can give advice, but I can give you my observations and opinion.

Oh you can, and it is so important I think that we all hear from the opposite sex. Thank you.

It sounds like your W is succumbing to a lot of family pressure. It sounds like she is willing to work on M/R and reconcile with you, but that she has some issues of her own to work out yet. I take it she is close with her family? Has she felt pressured by them in the past?

Her family is very close, they are far geographically, but they visit all the time. I love them all. But due to some bad divorces in the past, when push comes to shove they are with blood. As I would expect any family. But W is also saying she lied to them about me to make me look worse so her A wouldn't look so bad. Her family is actually the source of our problem and she admits this. Her father left, and she has a fear of abandonment that she has never addressed. None of her siblings have addressed it and it has ruined 3 of 4 marriages now. Really sad. Her father and I actually talked about a few months ago, he was almost in tears.

I think that under the circumstances I would take advantage of a private moment with her and let her know that you understand the pressures she is feeling. Tell her that you feel she still needs to sort out her priorities (family or M) and that you are more than willing to work on your M with her, but she needs to be committed. At the same time let her know that you understand how difficult her situation is. Let her know that you understand how important her family is to her.

I really like how you have put that. I need to let her know I appreciate her decisions and strong side. She has always been a strong women, and for the first time it appears she won't make a decision without checking with her sister and mom.

If her sister or mom is guilting her about the money for the D proceedings, talk with her about it and maybe come up with a plan that you both pay her mom back over time. Shows her that you're willing to work on M and that you respect her and her family. Validate, validate, validate.

Already made this decision. I'm an attorney and just floored at what this guy charged them. He really took advantage of them and I feel horrible. I'm actually thinking of helping my MIL by sending her to someone that will negotiate her bill for her. But no matter what I would have W and I pay her back.

Trust is a tough thing and it will make it next to impossible to gain back if you think that the next time her mom or sister interfere that she won't be strong enough to stand up to them. If she in her heart wants to come back and work on things she needs to stand up and say so. Being wishy-washy doesn't help the situation. Unfortunately if you tell her that she needs to stand up to her family she will most likely get defensive. Be careful and tactful on how you word what you say. Tell her that you support her and encourage her to be strong. Let her know that she needs to look inside herself without the help of others and make up her mind on her own what she wants out of life. If it is to come back and work on your M great. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for what you believe in and go against outside pressures.

I totally agree, and actually if she did stand to them and say this is what I want, I know they would respect her decision. No doubt about it, but they will ask the tough questions.

I would also stress that you both need to go slow, rediscover what you love about each other, date. Ask her on a date where she truly has the option to say no. If she accepts act like you did when you were dating. Dress to impress, wear a little cologne if so inclined, pick her up at her place, treat her like a lady, pay for everything. Don't expect a kiss good night unless she initiates it. If you both had a good time risk it and ask her if she'd like to go out again. The key is really to show her that she has the option to decline. It gives her control. It is frustrating being in limbo, but at the same time the dating can be kind of fun.

Haha! I love it. She actually asked if I was doing a tree this year and she would like to be a part of it. Well I extended an invite to get a tree this Saturday and do the decorating. But we will see if she comes. Not really a date, but a family date. If it goes well, maybe I go for real date.

Don't talk about her moving home unless she brings it up first. And even then I would tell her that you think you should wait . . . until more trust is established, until you are both sure that this is definitely the right thing to do, that you both still need some time to work on things, that moving back too quickly would make it too easy to fall back into your old patterns. It is hard, but I believe it will be worth the wait - that's where I am right now.

Totally agree. We have actually talked about this, but then she pulls back again. But it has to be slow.

Encourage her, validate her, tell her you have faith in her decisions, let her feel in control (something her family isn't giving her), praise her for her courage and her strength. Do not use guilt or blame. Do not put her in a position where she feels she needs to get defensive.

This is spot on for her. As I said, she is so strong and usually takes control, I think over time I usurped that control and she woke up to that and felt hopeless. I actually fell in love with her in college due to the control that she kept with herself. She always handled her own life so well. Then I came along and she really feel into my arms and I ran our life for the next 7 years. I think she feels now that she lost control.

Okay, that ended up sounding like advice. Oh well. Good luck and keep me posted on what's up. Where's your thread?

It is advice, THANK YOU! I don't have a thread, I used to post a lot and thought my W found it. So I got off the boards. It actually helped me to cope and do the LRT and then I found myself moving on. Now I'm totally sucked back in. When I create one I will let you know. Sorry for hijacking your thread, it just hit so close to home.

Well I'll keep you updated. I really do appreciate your advice. I will pray for you and your H. I hope things keep moving in a positive direction.

[Torchbearer]

You're welcome. I know a lot about strong women and it takes a special kind of man to "handle" us. Best of luck with your situation and possible dating and glad I could help in some way.

[Atlas]

Torch,

I'm over on newcomers for the traffic, I would really appreciate your input. Keep up the good work girl.

[Torchbearer]

Last night was a tough one and reminded me that I'm still in piecing mode. We had a long difficult phone conversation (about 3.5 hours). I don't know that I feel any better today after the talk. I feel like he thinks this whole thing is my fault and that I have to shoulder all of the change. He just has to come back and that in so doing he is granting me this huge favor. He claims he's not. He tells me that I treated him badly for the last 8 years, but worse yet I didn't even realize I was doing so, but yet he gets upset at me for calling myself a monster. What would you call someone that treated you as badly as he describes for 8 years without knowing it - a monster. Anyway. It hurt my feelings to say the least. I am not a monster. Yes, I've made changes with my life and they are changes that needed to be made. But he thinks he's "perfect" and gets out of this scot free. It makes me so mad.

I told him I am terrified that if I make one "slip" in my efforts that he will be running out the door again. He says, "After what you've shown me this past month, I think it would take more than a slip." Oh, that's so reassuring. He can't promise me things will be great. I don't want him to promise it will be great - I don't think anyone can do that. But does he have to be so doom and gloom about it? How about promising to try your hardest to make each other happy to try and make it as great as possible? Is that too much to ask????? I really don't think so. Trying and effort are what I'm asking for. I even told him so.

He tells me he is proud of how I was able to finally see why he "had" to do what he did (running away). I told him he never "had" to and I still don't understand that part. I told him I understand how difficult it was for him and how hurt he was but he never "had" to leave, that was his choosing. He did at least acknowledge that. He also told me that he can't be "attacked" anymore when he tries to share his feelings (I get defensive like most of us). I told him I can't promise anything other than I will try my hardest to listen. I also told him that if that's the case, then I need to ask him something. I asked him that the next time he shares his feelings to not start out with an attack to put me on the defensive. The night he left he started out the conversation with "I can't take it anymore." My first reaction was "What the f--- did I do?" I sort of apologized, but not really.

I told him more than once that my shoulders are broad and bear a lot, but I need his help. I need him to admit that he needs to change and address some things too. He still is sticking by his "I'm fine. I don't need fixing" attitude. This is part of why I'm not doing so well today.

He can't give me any assurance, but yet he wants me to keep trying. Whatever. He tells me that he never wanted me out of his life and that he always had hope. F--- him!!! He told me over and over and over and over and over for me to not have hope. We were never getting back together. Just get over it because it's done. Don't have hope because it's only going to disappoint you. I can't be happy with you in my life move on. Yea, that sounds like he had hope and didn't want to lose me. Whatever. Yes, I've read DR and yes, I know that I'm not supposed to listen to 100% of what he said during that time period, but it makes things really difficult in the piecing.

He says that actions speak louder than words so all he can do is show me that he loves me and show me that we're moving forward. I'm sorry, but I need to hear some words too. I need to hear that I'm loved, appreciated, respected, and admired. I think he needs to read 5LL because I don't think he understands (despite my telling him) that people have different understandings of love. The way he "shows" me might not mean anything to me, or at least not fully. Then we're both losing out. I'm tempted to buy him a copy and say read it, get a clue.

I told him that the actions he has taken and the words he has said (telling me I treated him awful since the beginning?????) has completely destroyed my confidence in how I treat others, and ultimately in who I am. I told him I am not going to walk on egg shells of fear that I am doing something he doesn't like and he's going to be out the door. He just doesn't get that. I told him that he has to tell me how to show him love or if he has needs that need to be met. I told him I can't read minds and I refuse to be fruitlessly stabbing in the dark trying to figure out what he needs.

I am so sad and so hurt this morning. It's the worst I've felt in a long time. Our conversation was honest and wasn't intended on being mean, but he keeps laying the blame on me. It's one thing when I'm willing to admit my failings in our R, but he has to admit to some too. As they say, it takes two to tango. I didn't do this all by myself. I am willing to take responsibility for my behavior and what I did to contribute to our situation, but he has to 'fess up that he played a part too. He can't just blame me. He doesn't get out of it that easy. I don't expect any words of advice and really don't want any. I'm just using this as a place to journal right now and am trying to just get a few of things out of my head in the hopes that it will make me feel better. It hasn't now, but hopefully I will feel better later.

[WAWed]

Hi Torch, has to be rough to get given all the blame when you've done so much work.

He probably really truely thinks he does need to learn anything. I found the Men are from Mars Women are from Venus made me very aware there was plenty I had to learn. It's little sad but title of book made it easy to get it past my male ego.
You could try and 'lure' him into reading a book buy letting him know you have learned some 'useful' (in mysterios kinda way) knowledge that you got from this or that book that was very interesting. He might not be able to resist the idea that you have some 'magic' knowledge that he is missing.

Stick to it

[Torchbearer]

I'm doing much better now. He spent the weekend again. He called on Friday and said he was packing up his stuff to come over - no more asking . . . I may have to bring that up. I wanted him to come over, but up until now he's been asking if that's okay. It's a comfort thing I know, but I appreciate the courtesy. We just ordered in and watched a movie on Friday. It was kind of weird as I was pretty distant. I wasn't cold, but I know I wasn't all lovey and he knows why. Then on Saturday morning when he got up from bed (I had gotten up a few minutes earlier) he came out to the living room and gave me a hug (like normal), but tears started to leak. I couldn't stop them. I wasn't sobbing, just quiet little tears. He pulled back and looked me in the eyes. Nothing was said, it didn't need to be. He understood. From there things got better. We still aren't passed the things I mentioned in my earlier post, but I think he understands. We both continue to be thoughtful and aware of being nice to each other instead of taking the other for granted. I still feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but I feel he is trying. I don't know what to make of things really. For now I think I need to be content to just let them be and let them play out. Yes, we need to continue having talks, but I don't want to over do them either because then the R is just kind of depressing. I want to enjoy him and being with him without dragging it down. Eventually it'll all work out especially if we try to be nice to each other and aware of what the other needs.

We'll get there. It was just a reminder that we're not quite through this yet. The plus is that we're still committed. As to some of the other stuff, I am letting him take the lead--regarding letting our attorneys go and putting our rings back on. I hate it, but I don't want to be the one to bring it up. He'll get there in his own time. I hate limbo but I still think it's someplace we need to be for awhile. It'll make me appreciate where we're going even more.

P.S. I'm almost done with school. One more paper and two more class sessions to go (including my final class session). Paper is due a week from today and it will be none to soon.

[MnSPD]

TB,

From my experience, I would say your feelings are very normal. We as the LBS have great feelings of loss rejection, uncapatibility, low self esteem, etc.... Try to recognize that it is these feelings and emotions that are guiding your thoughts right now. We get hyper sensitive to the emotions as we navigate this process called DBing. We focus on baby steps and every little positive we can find to keep our PMA as high as possible. As we transition to piecing we have a belief things should proceed relatively smoothly. We also perceive the WAS should have a light come on and see things as we do.

A key point to remember is the DBer has commited to learning about themselves, relationships and identifying things about their spouse, good and bad. In essence we are way further ahead in our progression toward a building mutual and loving relationship skills. This is why we get frustrated in piecing. We expect our efforts to simply flow over to our spouses. The reality is they don't. The spouse needs to make their own discoveries about themselves. Also keep in mind in your situation, your spouse left because of you. I'm not justifying his action, just reminding you of his mind set. He justified his action months ago. He now sees change and is again very interested in YOU. COOL!

Your challenge now is to get him in the sle fdiagnosis mode that you went through. I suggest reading DB / DR again, only this time you will find you are focusing on a different aspect from the Michelle. I think as you re-read you will recognize yourself as more of a coach in the ways you approach issue with your H, instead of focusing on yourself. Michelle gives tips to instigat a behavioral change from our spouses. This is where you are now.

You've done your work on you, now your task is to bring your H around to see what he has contributed to bring himself justification to become a WAS. To get him to recognize the triggers that led you in a direction to become P/A.

Reread the books, see if they carry a different meaning to you this time, develop a strategy to identify then seek solutions to the issues you uncover. Be sure to get your H's involvement on this. Get him to buy into the process before requiring him to do so.

I think you are experiencing many normal feelings and emotions. Piecing will do that. Our concentrations have been in a different direction and focused for os long, it takes some time and effort to switch gears, but I know you are up to the task!!

Oh, and ... Pattience, patience, patience,

Steve

[Torchbearer]

The ups and downs of the R (mostly my own doing right now) combined with school stress has left me recovering from my second migraine in 2 weeks. Yuck. I will be so glad when school is done and I can focus on work and my M. My body is telling me too much stress right now. And I haven't even started Christmas shopping yet.

H sent me an incredibly short and sweet email the other night that made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It's the kind of thing I was complaining about above - that I need to hear. So maybe he is figuring it out. It's the kind of thing that'll last me a week without feeling blue.

On top of it all he invited me to see a screening of his cousin's movie (she's an aspiring filmmaker) in a nearby town. And it wasn't even so much that he invited me, but how. He said, "I thought it would be cool to go to if you're not too bogged down on your paper Saturday." Basically he implied he would go with me or he would stay home. I don't want to keep him home while I'm doing homework, but it was the sentiment. Needless to say it has given me added motivation to have this beast nearly finished by Saturday so we can both go and enjoy ourselves. I told my mom and she agrees that it would be a good and probably needed break for me.

AND, it gets better - this has been a good week. My parents asked us to join them and my brother and his family for Christmas. There is no pressure and they really would be okay if we said no or if it was just me. So I asked H and he said "sure" quite enthusiastically. Cool.

AND, it just keeps going. He tells me last night that he has put in a timeoff request at work for the week between Christmas and New Year's. This is cool because he knows I always take that week off - where I work because of the actual holiday days it means I really only take 3 days of vacation and get like 12 days off in a row (that's why I do it). He doesn't know if the time will get approved but he did put in a request for it. I didn't ask, imply, suggest or anything else. This took me by surprise and is really all his doing.

I just need to keep up my PMA. I'm really the one that gets myself worked into the down days. I think they are justifiable and even necessary, but I need to work on having more happy than sad. This week is a good start and with school nearly done for the semester the next couple of weeks should only get better.

[MnSPD]

Excellent attitude TB!!!

[Torchbearer]

I am done!!! Done with school that is, or rather the semester. But either way this is a major accomplishment. I emailed my final paper to my professor last night at 8:00. I did a little dance for joy. Toasted to no more migraines - yuck! Then I promptly called my H. I was all giddy and happy and it was so obvious that all the stress was off. I told him we needed to meet somewhere and go out for a celebratory drink. He did me one better and stopped by and picked me up. He had already had dinner, but he bought me dinner, we had a couple of beers and he did a couple karaoke songs. I was silly all night. It was so much fun not having any stress. Now I just need to keep this momentum up a bit. I'm not even sure what I'm going to do with myself when I get home from work tonight - no homework!!!! I can do nothing and revel in it. Not sure if H is planning on coming by tonight, but it it's a continuation of last night he's more than welcome!!

I felt he deserved to see a really happy, bubbly me after Wednesday night. I suffered from my 3rd migraine in less than two weeks and only one day after the second one. I came home from class Tuesday night with a raging migraine. After laying on the couch in the dark for a couple hours it finally subsided. I stayed home from work Wednesday to recover and to work on my final paper. I was having a really good day and the writing was flowing. I was on a roll and finally stopped at about 3:00 to have some lunch. After I ate I sat back down at my desk and all went loopy. I started getting the floaters and bursts, all the precursors to another migraine. My vision was fuzzy. And, worst of all I temporarily lost my language abilities. I couldn't pronounce words or even fully recognize them. I freaked out and emailed my H. I could barely see. He called me from work really concerned. By then the speech was back and he ordered me to quit the homework and go lay down and to call him if I needed anything or if anything else strange happened. I laid on the couch feeling like the side of my head was going to erupt and tear itself away from the rest of my head. I think I would've been relieved. He got home a couple hours later and brought me to our local urgent care center. They gave me a shot and sent me home with some meds. We sat in the dark watching TV until about 10:30 and I was exhausted. I looked like he11, but was feeling better. I hadn't showered or brushed my teeth or anything, I had planned on finishing my homework first and then do all that stuff - never made it that far. Needless to say I felt he deserved to see me in a complete 180. I was in such a good mood yesterday evening!!!!