Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW? 9

[Heimlich]

Thanks Chris and ST. Lauren asked if she was staying with them at Nanas when W picked them up yesterday. As expected, nope. No reason for her too (our parents are in opposite corners of south Louisiana). Anyway, Lauren usually doesn't make up or misunderstand stuff like that, that's why I was a little surprised and mentioned it.

Casey was already telling me she's going to miss me while she was in Louisiana -- in front of W. I think she's going to get a snootful of how much this is hurting them while she's down there.

Chris, totally unrelated to DBing, but, since you teach IT wanted to ask, are you familiar with the term ECM -- enterprise content management?

BD

[PhD_ChrisD]

Hi Heim,

Sorry to hear about that. Can't say as I am suprised. I hope the children did not take it too badly.

Interestingly enough, regarding ECM, we have a large ECM provider as a major donor to our school: Filenet. Ted and Janice Smith have donated a lot of money to our school and even endowed a Chair. Filenet (www.filenet.com) was bought by IBM recently so they have lost a little bit of their hometown feel. However, they are still very much involved with the university by sponsoring software projects, hiring interns, and hiring gradautes. So what is ECM? A structured way, through managment software, of keeping track of stuff. Me and Heim start a company: we can keep all of our documents and stuff on a USB memory stick. Our company grows as large as IBM, we need a more structured solution to keep track of stuff and revisions of stuff. That was a simplification, but you get the idea. ECM gets complex with portals and intranets and version control and access control systems, but the idea is not complex.

Best,
--Chris

[Heimlich]

Just noting something new.

Spent a few minutes on the phone going over Christmas stuff for the girls. She called back a few minutes later, thought it was one of the girls, it was W, telling me that a Wegman's is going to open somewhere around where we live (woo effing hoo! White hots! Yes!). Also told me that a friend of ours had self-published a kids book for her nieces/nephews (Little Bunny Foo Foo) and she'd send it with the girls tomorrow.

Anyway, again, first time in a while she's let me know anything she's heard that I might be interested in.

Also asked me to pick up the girls a little earlier this Sat morning because she's got a hair appt. Previously, she would just say "can you get them earlier."

Anyway. Just noting and moving along.

BD

[Heimlich]

Hey, Chris, thanks. I'm very familiar with FileNet. Interviewed Lee Roberts years ago and have met some of the folks who did their first imaging prototype on a sales call. Which, if memory serves (we were at a bar) involved a box to represent the CPU and another for the scanner. Have also judged some of their user awards in the past. Heck, I even have a coffee mug from the WCM company they bought based in Bethesda (HQ in an old chinese restaurant. Stunk in there.), eGrail.

Got an invite to visit LaserFiche in Jan, but too many deadlines and a redesign to get through.

Just trying to figure out how much the concepts are filtering down into IT departments around the country and if it's being recognized as a standalone segment of the IT industry or being subsumed into IT industry.

If you're interested, we can continue this offline.

BD

[S.T. _I Made It!]

okay, ya, you guys just went way over my head. I feel stupid now.

Glad to hear W is telling you more and more things. that is a good sign, it shows she's getting more comfortable with you.

[Heimlich]

hoo boy, got to unexpectedly validate and DB a bit this evening. Originally had planned on doing a bit of Christmas shopping this evening. Left the office late and didn't think I'd have time to get anything done. With snow possible Friday (I thought) and that my only chance to get out and shop for the girls, I asked W if I couldn't get everything I wanted to get, if she would watch them for 2 hours or so on Sunday, that it wouldn't take me long. She sort of grudgingly said yeah. THen called me a back a few minutes later:

Keep in mind, that she's just given me the list of what's been purchased for the girls and that what I need to get won't take long. I know what I'm after (ended up shopping and getting most of it already, but that was my mindset when we spoke). I've got the girls tomorrow and meetings tomorrow and friday, so no chance to get out at lunch or during the day.

I may fill in the gaps later, but basically, she punched all of my huge faults over the years -- a tendency to be self-centered, a tendency to wait until the last minute to get things done. Couple of other things, but those are the big two. Said that I've been out -- sick about to pass out on my lunch breaks and making the time. You never do. Much more in that vein. I really am tired and she hammered me pretty good. I became a control freak because I couldn't trust you to get things done [this not totally true, more not get things done to some timeline she had in her head, but a LOT of truth in that complaint of hers] Agreed with all she said. You're right, I was that way. I'm doing the best I can to not be that way any longer. Then asked if I could say something. Told her that I asked to help shop, she never would talk to me about what we wanted to get. That she had done this over the years, she would push me away. She replied that you never get the right thing/or what if you got the wrong thing. easeir to do it myself. I said, "so what if I got the wrong thing. I bring it back and get the right one. You push me awya and push me away. You make me feel 2 inches tall when I did do something slightly wrong in your eyes. That's my fault for letting you make me feel that way and not telling you, but it's the truth.

I know, validate, validate. Still, she was attracted to a confident me when we met. I beleive it counterproductive to totally roll over. Anyway, there was about 30 minutes of this. She said something about I'm not worried about hurting your feelings or holding things inside. I said that's all I ever wanted from you. I said you haven't spoken to me, really, in 8 months. I've learned alot about myself, much of it, I didn't like. You leaving was the best thing you've ever done for me. It made me realize that I didn't really liek myself, that I wasn't the husband you deserved. It woke me up. I'm not perfect, but I'm doing the best that I can. My only regret is that I lost you in the process.

She said more of the same. I agreed. Said you still know how I feel, that I don't think it's too late or something like that, but I'm just living my life the best way that I can.

Then I went shopping and got most of the stuff for the girls I needed.

She said, at some point, that she had a lot of resentment towards me. I said that I know and understand, and deserve a lot of it, but that I loved you the best that I knew how. It wasn't good enough. You were right to leave, because we couldn't have been happy. I blamed you for everything from Oct to June, but I don't blame you any longer. I didn't know that then, but do now. I just regret that we didn't realize this five years ago. She: we didn't and it's too late.

That's the gist of it and more rambling than normal, so apologies.

Tell you what though, if ambivalence is the enemy, she sure as hell didn't sound ambivalent tonight. Of course, the woman can hold a grudge, so she just might end up being one of those bitter people blaming me for everything 10 years from now. If so, that's fine. I'm better off without that person. But, who knows, maybe she just needs to blow this out. I dunno.

Anyway, still plan on living life for me and not expecting her to come back. As I mentioned on WAW's new thread, going to ask that lady out tomorrow, when I'm (hopefully) more coherent.

Whew. Need to lose weight or not, I'm having a whiskey.

BD

[Heimlich]

GD/Puddle,

Regarding the Mission:Possible challenge from a week or so ago; please note that W called me.

Thanks

[IAChild]

Heim,

I think you definitely made some steps in the right direction. Speaking of ambivelance, however, you sound a like you have a little case of it.

What exactly are your goals with respect to W/R? It might help you clarify some things. I simply ask b/c dating becomes dangerous territory for those of us who are DRing.

I found that validating was a key factor in my personal work and my pre-reconciliation talks with H2B. I had failed to hear him in our R1. It was time for me to zip it and really listen. Once he felt that he had really been heard, I believe it opened the door for more two-way communication. IMHO, of course.

M

[Heimlich]

IA,

I'm whipped, but can't quite fall asleep. So, let's see here.

Yes, I am ambivalent in a sense. On the one hand, yes, I would prefer to reconcile with my W. On the other, since April of this year, she's been steadfast in her determination that she no longer wants to be with me. She began an EA in April of 2006, consumating that with a PA in July through Oct of last year -- at least once effing him in our bed. In our home. Now, I'm not going to say I was the best husband around. But I damn sure wasn't the worst. I loved her. I deserved to have been treated better. We tried from Oct to April of this year. I tried 100% to the best of my ability. Yet, I couldn't overcome the pain of the A. Every time I tried to talk about it. My pain. I was "throwing it in her face." By March of last year, I had come to terms with it. I could pass a hotel and not have my stomache go into knots. OK, I didn't realize how much she was hurting either. But, you know what, she never said, "When you do X, I feel Y." I gave her that from my point of view. I said ML was how I felt close to her. It wasn't a physical thing, but an emotional one. She said she still felt like a piece of meat. I did my best. She's admitted she gave maybe 75%. At any rate, by March of last year, I began to be happy again, not with myself, but in my R with W. She gave me the impression things were good. I go away on a business trip, come back, and ILYBNILWY. Over the summer -- NOT snooping, but random stumblings discover photos of her with OM forwarded from her work account to her hotmail address dated May of this year (Oh, those were pictures from last summer) and that she had been calling him and texting him nearly daily all summer long.

OK, I was blaming her for a lot from Oct to April, but she wasn't honest with me. Since June, I gave her an apology, which she said nailed every emotion she felt. I said, I'm not perfect, but I don't want to be that person any longer. She's noticed me changing. I ain't perfect. Never will be. But, I'm a much better person and man than I was a year ago. She still, from what I can tell, blames me entirely for the dissolution of our R and M. She has never acknowledged how any of her actions led me to feel or act in the ways that I did.

All of that said, I would still very much like to live my life with her. However, I have no expectations that that is going to happen. She has admitted to not giving it her all after she admitted to her A. It's a guy she works with. She sees him every day. I trusted her. I never snooped. I never drove by her office. Never. Not once.

She has honest grievances with me. I with her. Yet the fact remains -- she quit. I didn't.

So. It's been over a year. In the past few months, I've finally gotten it through my skull that she no longer views me as her H. No longer wants a R with me in that sense. I can accept that. It still hurts, but it's more like a distant pang than a sharp poke in the ribs.

I can't live my life waiting for her to turn around, because I honestly don't think she will. So, if there's someone I think I could enjoy some adult conversation with, I'm going for it. I'm not looking to be married again or get serious with someone or even to get laid (though, good lord, wouldn't that be lovely -- c'mon, we're all thinking it). I'd just like to spend some time with someone of the opposite sex who might find me attractive as a person and for some company of an evening.

I'm not ambivalent in my feelings toward reconciliation. But, at this point, I feel foolish clinging to the hope that she'll return. Is that "proper" DBing? I don't know. Regardless, that's how I feel.

BD

[Heimlich]

Once he felt that he had really been heard, I believe it opened the door for more two-way communication. IMHO, of course.

IA,
Question for you. You're absolutely right in that she doesn't feel like I heard her. [Funny thing is, I've always told her I valued her opinion and wanted to hear it. She would say something, I would respond/question. To me, I was just asking for clarification. To her, from what I gather, she felt I was invalidating her feelings/thoughts/opinions. I've said before, I think the root of our problems is that we never learned to really talk to each other because we each communicate differently. At the same time, she never made me feel safe enough to open up my thoughts to her. More on that in a second.]

So, yes, I need to listen/validate as the opportunity presents. You said pre-reconciliation you did a lot of this. Granted, all situations are different, but as I think of our conversation, this just seemed like she was b!tching. I remember thinking once she started talking, "Self, why are we even having this conversation. She's finished with me. Why should she care or care to tell me all of this stuff." Is that how your pre-reconciliation went? I mean, it's been months, really, since she's said much of anything too me about how she feels -- at least in this level of detail. Why now? WTH.

I mentioned this in my post last night, but I really do believe that she doesn't see her role in any of this or how she made me feel with the way that she behaved. A couple of representative statements:

1. About two years after we had been dating, she had transfered to UNO and was living at home. I drove down from Hattiesburg to see her. It'd been about a month. Now, I'm not the most stylish person, but I had tried to look nice for her. First thing she says to me, "Why are you wearing white pants after labor day." Talk about a letdown, it's been 14 years and that one still kind of stings. I remember just feeling crushed, like, that's all you can say to me after we've been apart for a month?
2. In May, in an MC session. She complained that she had to do all of the scheduling and paying bills (true for years, but she didn't acknowledge that I got her on auto-bill payments online or that I had really ramped up my helping her plan). I said that you were better at that and I thought that was jus tour division of labor. I took care of the girls, and you handled infrastructure stuff. Her response, "OK, you played with the girls. So what."
3. Big chicken or egg argument. Constant sexual rejection led to resentment on my part and lack of self-confidence on my part. Or was it the reverse? I've always told her that sex was more to me than just effing (though that's good too), it's an open expression of love. A feeling of closeness. Had always told her that's the way I felt. Never have I felt she wanted to listen or understand.

So, anyway, and I'm just mini-venting here, she's said a lot of hurtful things to me in our R. I don't think she acknowledges any of it. Not in any real sense other than, "Yeah, I was at fault too." She never made me feel like I could be open with my feelings with her. Always seemed dismissive or unresponsive. Circling back to different styles of communication. This goes back to last year as we were trying to reconcile. I never felt able to really talk to her. We did some, and I think we did reconnect a little. We just kept missing each other a little bit. So, to get back to your quote, I guess what I'm saying is that I never felt like she heard me either. You know? And that leads me to -- can she ever be that person for me? You know what, I don't know. There's the cornerstone of my ambivalence. I'm pretty sure that we could be that for each other. But as I think about the past to try to identify where I went wrong and things to improve about myself, I realize there are things about her that, well, might not be a good fit for what I need. Just don't know.

BD