WAW says "I'm filing for D", but no papers

[mako]

And then six months later she went and had a physical affair. How does that make sense?

This is just a guess as I don't know the ins and outs of your R with your W.

It's not that W didn't want sex, but that she didn't want sex with you. That is hard to hear, but I was in the same boat (although I have no knowledge of an A as of yet).

Men usually see sex as a physical thing...we need it, and will have sex with our W's even if we don't feel very close to them, just cause the physical need is so great.

Women on the other hand usually see sex as a more intimate thing, the culmination of being fulfilled in every way by their H. If they don't feel fulfilled, then they have no desire for sex.

I'm no sexpert, and these are gross generalizations, but I've done a lot of reading since the bomb and these things seem to often hold true. In my case we rarely had sex. My W didn't feel connected to me, so she didn't want to do it, and when we did I could tell she wasn't interested so I felt almost guilty about it. This made me feel withdrawn from her since she didn't want these things that I wanted, and I in turn didn't provide much affection and things that she needed. Since I was withdrawn in that way, she felt even less desire, so it was a vicious cycle. Now that I see this I think I could change things by unconditionally providing what she needs, causing her to feel more connection to me and in turn her desire would come back, but unfortunately I don't really have the opportunity right now.

I just add this on to the ever growing list of things I wish I knew 6 months or a year ago.

Based on this, I'd guess that your W also felt something missing in your M, she didn't feel fulfilled or some deep emotional connection, or whatever, so she didn't want sex. Then some OM came along, he was affectionate and said nice things or whatever it is your W needs to feel loved, so she found that burning desire with him.

Again, I don't know enough to say if this was the case in your sitch, but it could explain the W having no desire with you then all of a sudden having great desire with someone else.

[SirPrizeMe]

Yes, That's right, mako, that's how it was with the sex and connection. Absolutely. I always looked at my marriage as a partnership. I'm willing to put in, and I'd expect my partner to put in, too. Why am I always pursuing for sex? Why was my W not able to see that she has responsibility to her part of the relationship, too? I asked her for sex, she rejected me. Often. Regularly. She didn't offer any consolation. "How about if we just sit and talk?" nothing like that. We DID talk. About anything. Often. But not in the 6 months preceding the affair. It fits the pattern perfectly.

I am trying to be available for more talking, when she wants to, but balancing that with not being tooooo available, and also being firm about the business side.


An update:

Last night after work I felt lonely. Very tired, too. Someone had said "are you going home?" before I left work. and once again I am reminded that I have no home. Despair. In the car I broke down. I wept as I drove to my friend's house.

I arrived, collected myself for a while. I called the house, around 8pm. Happy and cheerful again. W answered, "Why'd you call?" Just to say hello to the kids, says I. We chit-chat a little. I ask what they're doing (movie). She shares a little. I listen. Then the the phone goes to the kids, one at a time. They're all ok. Just small talk, a check in. I'll see them tomorrow.

When the last one is done, the phone goes back to W. "did you want to talk to me?" "I didn't ask, but I'm glad to talk to you!" I said. She wants to share some more. She looked for houses this afternoon, without success. "I gave up" she said. I empathize (and I'm glad to do it). I say, "it's hard finding the right place, for the right money." I tell her I'm experiencing the same thing. We talk about budgets a little. How much housing costs, how much money we have to split. (a little financial reality).

She asks me to give her some money so she and the kids can continue in the house. To be honest we can barely afford the house as it is. Coupled with that, we have the prior house, empty, still unsold, still paying for that. We are living beyond our means. We spend all my income, plus more, every month. On top of this, I am supposed to get an apartment. I mean, really. This is financially irresponsible.

When she asks for money, a bell goes off in my head. I know this is a hard topic, and I know I am tired. I don't want this conversation to go sour. I tell her, "I'm not really ready to talk about this right now. Can we do this another time?" She does not want to drop it. So I tell her, I had asked my attorney and she advised against giving W money to continue in the house. I agree - Seems to me if we are divorcing, it is time to sell the house. W is clinging to the idea that she can stay there. (keep in mind she has no job.) I ask if she contacted the realtor. she has. The realtor did a walkthrough, but the house is not on the market yet. W says the house is really clean, nearly ready for sale.

She's not really attached to it. It's not really big enough, the neighbors are indifferent, the location is just ok. She and I feel similarly about the house; we had talked about that 8 months ago. We bought it too quickly.

She had another idea, where we'd put the house on the market, and I would come live at the house, while she would get an apartment. She offers that this would make it easier to sell the house, easier to keep clean while it is on the market. "Maybe it would!", says I. "But I am not going back there. You asked me to leave and you changed the locks. I'm not going back. I'm getting my own place." Not angry or agitated. Just factual. I am not her chess piece, to be moved around the board to suit her requirements. I did not say that, but geez.

Then she asks for money again. Again I decline. She accuses me of letting my emotions get in the way of my judgment, of not putting the children's interest first. I want to laugh, but I just empathize - "yes, this is hard for them. Very disruptive." She really wants them to not change schools. (Ok, I can see "minimize disruption for the kids" as a goal, but he!!, this is a divorce! The schools is what she is worried about? What about the rest of their lives? I don't say any of this) On the phone I share her concern, about minimizing disruption, but offer no solutions. I must have said "that stinks" 20 times as she told me the troubles she's having. She talked of later when she would have income, a good job, and then be able to buy a nice house somewhere, something she likes. "That will be nice." says I. All very calm.

As she was asking for money, the kids were screeching in the background. I again told her, no, I'm not giving you that money, my attorney advises against it. Still calm. She hung up abruptly, no goodbye.

I hate this part. I hate this conflict with my wife. I hate that she is having so much trouble. I want to help her, I want to be a family, but me agreeing to her "me first" ideas, like she wants money to stay in the house, and she wants me to move back in to house sit -- I just don't feel like me agreeing to all this is good for me, or for my family, or, in the end, for her. So conflict it is. I hate it.

Today I will see W when I pick up the kids.
I hope it's a good interaction.

[SirPrizeMe]

I have a specific question here - friends, please read this and tell me what you think.

Saw W yday as part of kid-swapping.
She dropped them off at the place I am staying (Friend's house).
I was showered, shaved, hair fixed, looking good, smelling good, smiling.
I felt and expressed heartfelt affection upon greeting the kids.

She shared what she'd be doing in the afternoon - attending an art opening - it sounded like a fun activity. I told her I hoped she'd have fun. Off she went.

Had a great time with the kids. Went out to dinner. We joked around as usual. I love spending time with them. Need an apartment or house of my own so I can do it more often.

At the end of the evening, I dropped my kids off at the house. Met her at the door - this is a new thing for me since she barred me from the premises. W left to go get some papers - her compiled list of family assets that we will be splitting in the D. While she was away from the door, S10 invited me into the house; I told him no, I cannot do that.

Here is where I really need some advice and guidance.

W returned, said, "You can come in..." I said, "no, that's ok" and stayed on the front stoop (smiling). She handed me the papers. I had to reach for them, we were so far away from each other.

I thanked her and turned to leave. Still smiling and cheerful. I asked her how the art opening went. It was fun. Good!, I said. This was a shorter exchange than I hoped it would be, but it was still positive. I left.

So what do you think? I really want to be invited back into the house, but not like this. Not as a matter of habit or reflex - there is someone on your front stoop so you invite them in.

I want the invitation to be mindful and thoughtful and meaningful. Not with an explicit apology (for barring me from the house in the first place, for escalating to D proceedings, etc). But at least with some sign that she has had a slight change of mind.

Am I asking too much? expecting too much? is the invitation alone, the sign I am looking for? If in the future, she invites me in again in this way, should I go in?

At this point, just writing this, I am leaning toward - I should go in next time. I don't think I made a mistake last night. Declining the invitation was the right thing at that time. If she invites me in a 2nd time, I'll accept. I'm trying to be patient, to not rush things. What do you think?

Anyway, one more positive day for me!

I'm interested in hearing your opinions on the <<go in or stay out??>> question.

This thread is going to lock soon. My next posts will be in ...
Separated, what now?

Peace to all!

[bhopeful]

Sir, I think that she knew what she was doing when she invited you in. I think you did the right thing at the time too. I think that next time you should go in, but take it slow. Don't go sit on the couch or anything like that. Probably don't even take your shoes off. Play it by ear I guess, but definitely take things slow. If she had completely barred you from the house before, I think she must have softened quite a bit on that to offer to have you come in. If she was really adamant about not letting you in in the past, then I don't think that she would just offer out of reflex because someone was standing at the door. I say go with it next time...

Peace,
B

[SirPrizeMe]

B, so glad you think that way. I will take your advice to be cautious, go slow, no sudden moves.

She is ambivalent about barring me from the house, that's for sure. She told me she had changed the locks during a phone conversation where I was asking her if I could get my bike (I like to ride). After telling me the locks were changed she immediately began to tell me where she had hidden the key.

In parallel we are having difficult discussions about splitting expenses - "temporary orders" during the divorce negotiation. One of her suggestions was for her to move out into an apartment, and me to move into the house again (alone).

I told her, "no, I'm getting my own place, I'm not going back to that. You've told me I can't come in, you've changed the locks. I'm not coming back."

Is this too strong?

I said this in trying to act from strength, but now looking back, maybe this was a gift for me. Maybe me accepting her idea and moving back into the house, would offer a place she could come back to.... Whereas if I got my own (new) apartment, it would not be someplace to come back to.

Maybe I should have thought about it some more.

Why I reacted the way I did - I don't like to be moved around like a chess piece at her whim. I moved out of the house at her request (Actually I moved out after she told me she is still talking to OM), now she is asking me to move back in while she moves out, etc etc. I feel like I am getting yanked around. I'm willing to do it, it's not ego. But I'm thinking, why would she want to re-commit to such a spineless guy?

It's like the old joke - "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." Sometimes I think her view of me is like that - I have tolerated her infidelity for so long that she has lost respect for me. I have wept over the stress in front of her, and I think she cannot bear to see it, cannot bear to be married to me because of it.

Why? Why do I say this? Lots of things. She has told me that when she looks at me she sees a good man. She just can't live with me (insert accusation of abuse here). How the abuse part jives with the "good man" part, I don't know. She's an introvert, hesitant to share feeligns. As if strong feeligns are just bad, no matter what. Child of an alcoholic, she just hid in her room when she was scared or worried (which was often), and I think she continues that pattern now. Also - She has repeatedly suggested that I find another woman, someone who will appreciate me, someone who fits me better. She even suggested her own best friend.

For this reason I feel like I need to re-establish myself as someone worthy of respect. I need to be stronger and more principled. At the same time showing the empathy i truly feel for her.

On a separate note, Today I am going to write her a short note about how much fun I had at S11's birthday dinner last night.

[SirPrizeMe]

Here's my note to W:

Subject: about last night...

I had a great time,
it was terrific to see you,
and watching S11 open all his gifts was a highlight.

Thanks for being there.

This is the first tieme in 2 months we've had dinner together as a family. Before the separation, even after the bomb, we had dinner together as a family every night.

[SirPrizeMe]

W's reply:

Well I'm very glad that you are choosing to be more involved with the kids these days. And I'm glad that it was important to you to be there for S11 for his birthday. It meant a lot to him to have us all there.

Choosing to be more involved!?!?!? This seems really loaded to me. I have always always always been an involved parent. I was soccer coach for every one of my kids. I have never missed a birthday, for work or any reason. I go bike riding or kite flying with them. At the beach I make sand castles with them. I make collages with my girls, and I make rockets with my boys. When I was at home, I worked on their homework with them, I made them breakfast every morning before school, and I made them pancakes on Saturday. We planted a garden in the summer. I take them skiing or sledriding in the winter. I love my kids.

Since I left the house, "to give her space," I have obviously been less involved with my family. And it's torture. I miss them sooooo much. I didn't choose to continue an affair. I didn't choose to decline to go to MC. I didn't choose to file for divorce. I do not choose to break up my family.

I guess I can find some good in her reply: she recognizes that her kids want the family to stay together.

As a consolation prize, I scored a complement (told her "it was terrific to see you") and she didn't reject me outright. Score!

I'll be satisfied with that, for today!

(I've no plans to respond to her note.)

[bhopeful]

I told her, "no, I'm getting my own place, I'm not going back to that. You've told me I can't come in, you've changed the locks. I'm not coming back."

This was a bit strong. Especially the "I'm not coming back." part. You might have wanted to add "right now" to the end of that. What's done is done though and now that you've put that out there you have to follow through. You can't display this much conviction and then wallow back and say "Ok, I'll move back in.". Also, would she take the kids with her if she got an apartment? If so, then she should definitely stay in the house for their sakes.

Get your own place. Find your inner strength. Find your happiness. This will draw her to you if anything will.

[SirPrizeMe]

Yeah, it sounded a bit too strong as soon as I said it.

I'm of two minds on it. On one hand I want to leave the door open a bit. On the other hand, she's been jerking me around for months and months.

I never liked a TV in the bedroom. When I moved out of the house, the next time I visited, there was a TV plopped on a table in the bedroom. The kids were scattered all over the bed, watching TV. My opinion was, the bedroom was for sleeping and ML. It was OUR space, reserved for us. I didn't like the kids to feel like it was theirs. They had the rest of the house, 80% of the house to run around in. I wanted one room just for us.

But as soon as I moved out, she moved the kids into the bedroom.

(shakes head.) It's like she did it just to stick her tongue out at me.


I feel like I can back off my "I'm not coming back" statement if she comes around. I'm still wearing my ring and she knows it.

[Yes, she would take the kids if she got an apartment.]

[Dom R]

I feel like I can back off my "I'm not coming back" statement if she comes around. I'm still wearing my ring and she knows it.

Never assume the other person knows something, unless you have told them directly.
And even then.. they may misunderstand, or forget, what you have said.