Looks like the end

[haphazard]

Ellie,

Yes the gyn can snip those cords, but that does not solve the problem of being married to a man who can just stop having sex with me rather than speak up and say something.

Fran

FWIW, the cords don't need to be snipped they need to be lengthened, if they were snipped they would be beyond the reach of the gyn when it came time to remove the IUD. It means replacing the darn thing essentially.

[haphazard]

Hey Choc,

How's it going with you? Thanks for validating the email. I haven't sent it. Still wavering as usual. I know what you mean about flexing the power muscles. I just need to wise up to what I want and then use those muscles to get it. If, and it's still a big if, what I truly want is out then I just have to send the email. If I want to give him one last chance to shape up then I need to be totally clear about what that looks like and totally clear what happens if he doesn't. I'm not 100% clear on what it looks like yet. When I've got that figured out then the sentiment of the email is what happens if I don't get it.

Maybe this is a start

Go to AA
Look after yourself
Treat me with respect

Now I need to draw a picture for him of what the second two mean. Geez doesn't that list sound like what you might say to a teenager?

Fran

[MJontheMend]

I almost get this but not quite. If you can clarify with an example that would help. I think my big mistake was coming of weak when H first stood there with our new-born son not 3 days old, strapping on his boots and saying "I can't do this I'm out of here". Instead of saying "Fvck off then" I fairly clung to his legs and begged him to stay. HUGE mistake - but understandable under the circumstances. As soon as I was weak and put him on top he became cruel.

Okay, here's what I mean. You were weak bunny when you begged him to stay but you would have been some kind of dysfunctional lioness if you said "F*ck off then". Strong bunny would calmly say something like "I wish you cared to care for me and your child. I will need help. I suppose I shall have to seek it elsewhere." One of the best strong bunny things I did was the time I was lying in bed (slightly drunk, I admit) and my 2bx was standing nearby in one of his usual cranky moods and I just cheerfully pretended like I was snuggling/spooning up to some imaginary man (remember Hank?)and said something like "I wish there was someone here I could do this with." My 2bx was kind of dumbfounded. I really should have relied on Hank even more. He was very helpful (but my real life lovers have been even better!- which perhaps says something about the limits of self-validation or the imagination of even someone as irrationally optimistic as me. My post-separation sexual life has been far better than any divorce fantasy I might have had. However, my post-separation financial life has been worse. Word to the wise from a fellow Type 7, I suppose. However, given that my kids are adequately covered, I would much rather be broke than sex-starved. Much, much, much rather.)

[Dom R]

He is right now in the process of going completely over-board in the kitchen and cooking me up a three course gourmet dinner. I'm not in the least impressed. I don't want occasional displays of vituosity - vanity really - I just want solid decent behaviour week in week out.

sure, regular positive behaviour from your husband is more important.

That being said.... hopefully, you will still choose to show appreciation for his efforts tonight.
Otherwise, you give him the message, that if OUTSTANDING dinners dont make you happy, then there's no way that "everyday regular dinners" could stand a chance of making you happy.

I think it's best to always try to be appreciative of positive treatment... even if it isnt "exactly" the behaviour you are looking for.

[Kettricken]

Dom, I hear you on not looking a gift horse in the mouth ... but come on. It's a bit more complicated than that. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar .... sometimes a last-ditch attempt to go all out to wow a spouse is a generous act of kindness .... but sometimes it's just a self-interested attempt at manipulation. By your reasoning, a wife whose husband knocked her to the ground in a drunken fit of rage and then showed up the next day with a diamond necklace should just try to be grateful for the gift.

I'm sure Fran can tell the difference....

[Dom R]

By your reasoning, a wife whose husband knocked her to the ground in a drunken fit of rage and then showed up the next day with a diamond necklace should just try to be grateful for the gift.

I think that is a ludicrous comparison.

I believe that what is at the heart of marriage, is the willingness to look at actions that your spouse has shown to you, and be willing to believe that they mean well, rather than taking the negative interpretation automatically.

If you start off by taking the negative interpretation... then you have already closed down the marriage yourself.

Once you start always assuming the worst.. then no action they do, will ever be taken as a positive.

Been on the recieving end of this one. Being shut out, is a major anti-motivation factor to keep trying anything positive.

I'm sure Fran can tell the difference....

1. she's not a mindreader
2. she didnt sound like she was interested in determining the difference
3. at the very least, it's nothing more than politeness, to acknowlege nice things done for you.

[Lillieperl]

Dom, Fran's husband is an active alcoholic. The normal rules of relating don't apply. For an active alcoholic, the MOST important thing in his/her life is alcohol. It's important for Fran's husband to keep things in their life the same so he can go on drinking. If she changes things, he will have to make changes, too. By being "nice" to Fran, he is trying to keep her from making changes that might bring him face to face with his drinking. For her to appreciate what he is doing does not have the same meaning as it would if a normal husband in a normal marriage were doing something nice. Fran's H isn't doing it out of love; he's doing it out of terror that she will leave him, and he won't have a safe place to drink anymore.

That doesn't mean he doesn't love her. I'm sure he does. But he is not capable of showing it in a consistent, genuine way as long as he is not in some kind of recovery program.

I'm not making this up.

[karen1]

Amen!

Karen

[Dom R]

(reordering the quote that follows a little...)

....
That doesn't mean he doesn't love her. I'm sure he does. But he is not capable of showing it in a consistent, genuine way as long as he is not in some kind of recovery program.
....
Dom, Fran's husband is an active alcoholic. The normal rules of relating don't apply.

I am not really trying to convince Fran, "yes, he really means it this time!"

while the "normal rules" of relationship dynamic and healing may or may not apply in her situation, though.... I have difficulty accepting the notion that if someone is an active alchoholic, you should show them NO courtesy or politeness, until they do exactly what you want and go to rehab.

I'm not suggesting she jump up and down and say "wow a 3 course meal how wonderful you are!!". I'm just suggesting that she show at least a standard level of politeness in thanking him for his efforts.

she kinda made it sound like she was just going to eat the meal, and face him with only an attitude of "you know this changes nothing... i dont buy this...."

She may feel that.... and she may have complete justification for that feeling.
To treat him as though he has already let her down for the future, though, would be not right, in my opinion.

Yes, he probably will. but dont "punish" him, until he actually does it?

[haphazard]

I was appreciative but not swayed by H cooking the nice meal last night. If you can understand the difference. I engaged with the act of appreciating a nice meal well cooked. I did not engage with the wooing process that H was aiming for. He knew something was off kilter but didn't seem to have any tools to deal with it. He could not throw a hissy fit at me for spurning the lovely meal he had cooked. Counting the empties this morning we have 3 bottles of wine each with about a glass left in them, a can and a half of beer and an almost empty tonic bottle that I guess he used to mix about 3 G&Ts. I had 3 glasses of the wine. This is about double his usual daily intake.

Dom, it would have been lovely if H had cooked a normal meal for the two of us last night. That would have been great because part of the reason he did it was that we discussed the whole cooking issue and he agreed to cook on Saturdays. I know for a fact that he won't be able to maintain that kind of standard, he will get fed up start to resent me and we will be back in our usual place. He is also doing it somewhat defiantly to try and raise the bar of what I will cook during the week. The things I cook are stuff like bolognese, fajitas, bean stew, meatballs etc. All perfectly nicely prepared and edible. Just day to day family fare. But he thinks of himself as too good for that kind of food and deserving of better.

Lil, you are right that the nice stuff he does generally comes off as a desperate act designed to keep me from leaving him to deal with his own [censored]. The normal day in day out, week in week out, month in month out behaviour is pretty crappy. And I have been acting, to use Mojo's metaphors, dysfunctional cow with a hint of strong lioness mixed with weak bunny whenever the cow's had enough. By the way, I found an Alanon meeting very near me that meets on Sundays at 7.30 which is a pretty ideal time, so I'm going to start going. The more I read the more I learn that every part of his so-called personality is dictated by alcohol. There is a nice, decent guy in there somewhere and whenever I am reminded of that I feel guilty but it's not my fault he has switched his own personality for that of a drinker and it is not my responsibility to "save him" my responsibility is to myself and to my children.

The issue of the IUD cords is paradoxically helping me because unless that is fixed we won't have sex. To me this is now a good thing, I no longer wish to feel that post-coital after glow and make the mistake of thinking everything is going to be OK. Nothing will be OK unless and until H addresses his alcoholism and I can now see very clearly how I have been standing in the way of him doing that.

Fran