Don't know what I'm doing anymore - Help.

[Heimlich]

I'll admit to not having read every single word of the past two days of posts here, but lets not forget that Ann's H withdrew from her emotionally, acts in many childish ways (she does the housework -- cooking, cleaning, diaper changing -- with little to no help from her H), and instigated her EA by demanding a divorce. Not to play the blame game, but a lot of the advice to Ann seems to be "suck it up and love him". She's been TRYING TO SUCK IT UP AND LOVE HIM. Sure, he's hurt by her EA. Been there, I feel his pain. But it also doesn't sound like he's taken any responsibility for where they are. Dom, I think you described perfectly how he's feeling -- I know I felt myself from a year ago when I read your words.

She's about to be a WAW. Here H doesn't get it. How do we help her H get it? Yes, Ann should be patient and loving and kind. But should she have sex or be forced to get naked at his request. I can imagine how demeaning that felt to her. I don't hear Ann saying no to say no, but saying no because she doesn't want to. Why should she have sex when she feels her skin crawl or her stomach flop at the thougth of it. The fact that she's OK with trying a few times a week is a big thing and she should be congratulated for it, not demeaned for not doing enough.

And Ann should bring up her resentments, they are as real as her H's about the EA. It's a catch-22, Ann can't talk about the feelings of resentment that lead her to an EA, which she's admitted multiple times to regretting, but she has to be OK with constantly reassuring her H that everything's OK? That's complete and utter crap and is going to led to Ann either being miserable or leaving. Just because those feelings led her to the EA don't invalidate those feelings. Eventually her H is going to have to either admit to his role in this and really start helping her out and giving her the H she deserves or she's going to be justified in eventually leaving. Ann gets it. How do you get her H to get it? That seems to me the question.

BD

[Dom R]

I don't my babying him, but it would just be nice to see a teensy weensy bit of effort on his end too.

he IS putting in effort. Lots, and LOTS, of effort.

Unfortunately, the areas he is currently putting effort into, are not covering areas that you need effort from him in.

Perhaps you should spend some time identifying one specific area, where you could use some effort from him. not HUGE effort. what I might call "safe" effort.
In other words, something that he might reasonably do for you, that would not require huge amounts of trust from him, for him to do for you.

(now, i'm getting to the side of things that Heimlich is looking for. Yes, I get there. I always do What I think would be ideal, would not be for Ann to do one iota less than what she is doing. But rather, to encourage her H to start doing more from his side. Sounds to me like the timing is good right now, for that to start.)

[ann25]

WHY do you want to bring it up?

I don't especially want to bring it up. There are a lot of times that he triggers it because he says something or does something that just reminds me how bad it was. Its not that i want to talk about it an relive it cause it SUCKED, but he's allowed to be hurt and I'm not. I know that it doesn't get to be fair because I'm the one here and I need to make changes for me and I can't focus on him, but it still stucks.

Sometimes, is it maybe just a little "defensive", even if it isnt explicitly "defending the EA"? eg:, "well, I was bad, but you were toooo!!"

the only time i bring it up is when he says something like "i just don't understand why you would have even started talking to him in the first place." i try to just explain that i was hurting and needed support and didn't think i could get it from him. I know how it's going to come across, so i always(yes always) start out by saying that i know it was a mistake and there was not excuse for it. I am not defending it, but ...

Is it because you see him behaving the same way? Or has he changed?

small things have changes a little, but as the time span from the EA ending lengthens he gets worse and worse. we are back to the (example)"you know I'm not getting the decorations out until this house is totally clean, right" i know he could care less about the decorations, they only really matter to me and the girls, so it's my job. he cleaned one day last week and (we have kids and a dog and laundry) since it's not that clean all the time, "he tired, but it doesn't matter because it just doesn't stay clean" or last night in front of BIL and BILs GF, he says, "you know you're the messy one, it wouldn't be like this if it were just me" and that probably doesn't sound that bad, it's all in the tone.

Is it because you want to have him admit that he was treating you badly back then?Has he ever done that?

in MC (which he doesn't want to go back to cause she never helped him (cause he never spoke up)) he said one time that he understands why I had EA and that he's sorry that I had been feeling so unhappy with him. I don't need him to admit it, i just think a little understanding on his part as to maybe why i'm not in love with him or why I don't feel like being intimate or just "getting naked" would be nice.

What you truely "should" have done, was fight to have a better marriage.

hehe... that was the venting talking. i know that i shouldn't have left, but sometimes when i get upset like that (never around him, normally when i journal and stuff) i think that. I know that leaving would have been the biggest mistake.

that's not what the "act as if" stuff is meant for

didn't mean that like in the way people are trying to act as if here. mostly that I'm trying to be physical with him and give him what he needs in that respect even though i don't feel like it.


the easiest thing that i've asked of him and continue asking of him is that he helps around the house (it's his too, this shouldn't take any trust) and if he doesn't want to do that, don't complain to me and critisize me for the way it looks, I'm one person and i can only do so much. that would take whole lot of pressure off me and maybe make him slightly more involved in our Ds lives and our M, but even if just for the girls.

[ann25]

Heim, you always make me feel better. hehe.

that was exaclty the point i was trying to make. I've been trying. have i been perfect, heck no, but I'm trying to do the only thing he's asked me to, be more wiling sexually. I'm trying. now I just need something from him, other than just being there. Just being there isn't enough. I know it's hard, but being there is hard for me too.

my feelings should count to. do i want to go back and rehash all that. no way. do i wish that sometimes he could possibly understand that I have feelings too and I need time to heal as well and I'm doing my best for now.

heim and dom - i'll take any and all advice, support and critism i can get here... sometimes I just have to let it all out. thanks for posting here. i really appreciate every point of view.

[Dom R]

Its not that i want to talk about it an relive it cause it SUCKED, but he's allowed to be hurt and I'm not. I know that it doesn't get to be fair because I'm the one here and I need to make changes for me and I can't focus on him, but it still stucks.

Weeelll.. i wouldnt say that you cant look at what he's doing At All. Nor does "you being the who who is here" mean that you have to do all the work.
You have a right to ASK him, to take up his fair share of marital duties.
People who are here, generally suffer less, if they lose EXPECTATION that their spouse will respond in exactly the way they wish.

The thing about him forgiving you for your EA... is that it's supposed to actually mean FORGIVING YOU, for the EA.
That should mean, "trying to get past the hurt, and treating each other in a marriage-positive way".
Some thoughts on that lower down.

Is it because you see him behaving the same way? Or has he changed?

small things have changes a little, but as the time span from the EA ending lengthens he gets worse and worse. we are back to the (example)"you know I'm not getting the decorations out until this house is totally clean, right"

well, that could be taken either way.
it could be taken as being domineering... or it could be taken as simply him standing up for something that you agreed(?) to do, and havent done.

I don't need him to admit it, i just think a little understanding on his part as to maybe why i'm not in love with him or why I don't feel like being intimate or just "getting naked" would be nice.

aha... potential break-through moment here...

Are your feelings irretrievably based on the past... or are they based on how he is treating you NOW?

I think that they are mostly based on how he is treating you now.
which is healthy.
Trouble is, I think you are fixated on the past, even when I think it's more about how he treats you now.

So here's the good news: If he has all those negative reactions and defenses when you bring up the past.... maybe you should stop doing that.
The good news is: I dont think that you have to bring up the past, to help him help you feel better in your relationship.

You want to be forgiven for your past. Forgive him for his past, first.

Try focusing solely on the "now". Focus on how he treats you, NOW, and ask him in gentle ways, to improve it.


You might also help this effort, by attempting to zero out your past behaviours together. That is to say, maybe have a conversation with him, something like;



I know that you are feeling very hurt about the past. I'm trying to give you support in that. I'm also trying to make our present, and future, as good as they can be.
If you have questions and issues about the past, I will continue to try and be open about it when you need me to. For the most part though, I would like us to talk about what a good future looks like for us.

I think that maybe we could benefit from talking about what a good, fair marriage looks like between us.
If we both do our best to forgive and forget the past, and could "start fresh"... how do you think we should treat each other, to make us both happy?






you might also go pull up some sample pre-canned ideas of what a "good marriage" looks like, so you can discuss and hopefully find agreement on one together.

[sandi2]

we are at home, watching some UFC stuff and he randomly tells me

he wants to see me naked. what sense does that make, can't we just sit down and have a nice evening... anyways. i tell him that i'm freezing and made a little joke about it. not 20 minutes later, after i'm covered up, he says it again. geez. he wants to see it, fine. afterwards i remind him that i know its important to him and if he directly asks me for something, I'll do it for him, but comments like that don't do anything for me and if anything, it turns me off more because he knows i didn't want to do it yet he continued at me until i did.

I think this is his way of testing you. In his mind, you did all these things for the OM and now he is pushing your buttons to test you and see how far you will go for him. I bet he almost sounds anything but sweet and sexy when he is telling you this, is he. I can almost see a snear on his face when he says it. He is obsessed with the thought of you desiring an OM or the thought of OM having seen you or desired you, etc. That is why he won't leave you alone and why he chooses inappropriate times to test you like he does. It's not b/c he wants to make love to you.....he is using you. I think down on some deep level, this is a way he has of punishing you also.

[Dom R]

Sigh...

Sandi.. I think it may be that you are projecting what you think about your husband, onto hers?

so... are you going to talk to YOUR husband tonight?

[sandi2]

DomR,

I sure didn't mean to be doing that.....and really don't think I did since my H did not do anything like her H is doing to her. Mine has never thrown the OM up in my face nor has he wanted to see me naked, couldn't keep his hands off me, nor make the snide remarks that her H is making to her that is not very loving or appropriate.

I will talk to my H when the time is right. But, he has not been in a good mood and I don't feel the time is right. I will know when it is.....not you, so please don't pressure me, ok? Timing is everything and I have learned from bad experiences that I better wait until I know it is the "right" time to discuss things of that nature with my H or I will be sorry for ever bringing the subject up.

[mrarow]

Thanks Anne
I hope she wakes up before christmas. I hate this situation with her and seeing her so confused and unhappy with no disire to spend romantic time with me. She says all the things I do she notices but the make her feel very guilty and that was not the efect i wanted to give thats for sure!!
Loving her more today than yesterday and less than I will Tomorrow!

[ann25]

small things have changes a little, but as the time span from the EA ending lengthens he gets worse and worse. we are back to the (example)"you know I'm not getting the decorations out until this house is totally clean, right"

well, that could be taken either way.
it could be taken as being domineering... or it could be taken as simply him standing up for something that you agreed(?) to do, and havent done.

no. it's not something we agreed on. It's him deciding that the house wasn't clean enough for him, so he's going to withold something he knows that I want until he gets what he wants. He could care less about the decorations and stuff and doesn't seem to want to help me much, so I just have to work harder to clean. That's what I did this weekend. Maybe we'll get the decorations out this week sometime.

I'm trying to focus how i'm feeling now on how he's treating me now. I think the hardest thing for me to get through is that when all the past stuff was going on is when i stopped feeling for him. I think for me its a forgiven, but not forgotten thing. I've forgiven him. I used to hate him for it. I've moved a long way from there. Its a little hard not knowing what caused it. Maybe that's what i'm struggling with. The not knowing. For him, he knows why i was talking to someone else. for me, i don't know what happened that caused him to start treating me so much worse. My history teachers used to always say, "those who don't know their past are doomed to repeat it." I know why i had the EA, i don't know if even he knows for sure why he was treating me like that. (if all that makes any sense. hehe)

I think that's a great way you put the conversation. I'll try that tonight. I really appreciate your help and insight.